1 00:00:03,180 --> 00:00:01,730 [Music] 2 00:00:17,190 --> 00:00:03,190 foreign 3 00:00:17,950 --> 00:00:17,200 [Music] 4 00:00:30,490 --> 00:00:17,960 [Applause] 5 00:00:35,750 --> 00:00:32,990 welcome back to the UFO Rabbit Hole 6 00:00:37,310 --> 00:00:35,760 podcast I'm your host Kelly Chase in 7 00:00:39,770 --> 00:00:37,320 this episode I'm bringing you something 8 00:00:41,750 --> 00:00:39,780 a little different an interview 9 00:00:44,330 --> 00:00:41,760 I've recently taken the plunge to making 10 00:00:46,310 --> 00:00:44,340 this my full-time gig which means that I 11 00:00:48,950 --> 00:00:46,320 have more time to invest in getting more 12 00:00:50,990 --> 00:00:48,960 content to you all more quickly so going 13 00:00:53,029 --> 00:00:51,000 forward interspersed between the regular 14 00:00:55,490 --> 00:00:53,039 scripted episodes will be interviews 15 00:00:57,590 --> 00:00:55,500 with experts whose work is referenced in 16 00:00:59,389 --> 00:00:57,600 the most recent episode so that we can 17 00:01:01,490 --> 00:00:59,399 dive deeper into their work and the 18 00:01:03,709 --> 00:01:01,500 themes we've explored there and I'm 19 00:01:05,509 --> 00:01:03,719 thrilled to share that the very first of 20 00:01:08,810 --> 00:01:05,519 these interviews will be with one of my 21 00:01:10,850 --> 00:01:08,820 personal Heroes Dr Diana Walsh paselka 22 00:01:12,830 --> 00:01:10,860 if you're a regular listener of the 23 00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:12,840 podcast you are already familiar with Dr 24 00:01:18,230 --> 00:01:15,360 pasoka's work which we discussed in both 25 00:01:20,510 --> 00:01:18,240 episodes 11 on the emergence of UFO lore 26 00:01:23,330 --> 00:01:20,520 and in the most recent episode episode 27 00:01:24,289 --> 00:01:23,340 16 on the occult origins of the Space 28 00:01:26,270 --> 00:01:24,299 Program 29 00:01:28,310 --> 00:01:26,280 and for this interview you'll at least 30 00:01:30,050 --> 00:01:28,320 want to have listened to episode 16 to 31 00:01:33,410 --> 00:01:30,060 get the full context of our conversation 32 00:01:35,210 --> 00:01:33,420 but episode 11 would also be helpful if 33 00:01:36,950 --> 00:01:35,220 you haven't listened to those I highly 34 00:01:38,929 --> 00:01:36,960 recommend that you go back and do so 35 00:01:41,690 --> 00:01:38,939 before continuing on 36 00:01:43,310 --> 00:01:41,700 Dr Diana Walsh baselka is a professor of 37 00:01:45,170 --> 00:01:43,320 religious studies and chair of the 38 00:01:46,310 --> 00:01:45,180 Department of philosophy and religion at 39 00:01:47,749 --> 00:01:46,320 the University of North Carolina 40 00:01:49,969 --> 00:01:47,759 Wilmington 41 00:01:53,270 --> 00:01:49,979 she holds a bachelor's degree from UC 42 00:01:56,090 --> 00:01:53,280 Davis a masters from Berkeley and a PhD 43 00:01:58,670 --> 00:01:56,100 from Syracuse University she is the 44 00:02:00,730 --> 00:01:58,680 author of Heaven Can Wait Purgatory in 45 00:02:04,429 --> 00:02:00,740 Catholic devotional and popular culture 46 00:02:06,889 --> 00:02:04,439 and American Cosmic UFOs religion 47 00:02:08,330 --> 00:02:06,899 technology which we'll be discussing in 48 00:02:10,969 --> 00:02:08,340 this interview 49 00:02:13,250 --> 00:02:10,979 for me American Cosmic is one of those 50 00:02:15,710 --> 00:02:13,260 rare books that changes everything about 51 00:02:18,530 --> 00:02:15,720 how you see the world and that process 52 00:02:20,510 --> 00:02:18,540 has been ongoing I've gone back to it a 53 00:02:22,190 --> 00:02:20,520 few times over the last year while also 54 00:02:23,809 --> 00:02:22,200 absorbing all of Diana's other 55 00:02:26,809 --> 00:02:23,819 interviews and lectures that I could get 56 00:02:28,490 --> 00:02:26,819 my hands on each new reading builds upon 57 00:02:30,290 --> 00:02:28,500 itself and the closer I get to 58 00:02:33,110 --> 00:02:30,300 understanding what she's really saying 59 00:02:35,869 --> 00:02:33,120 the more astonished I become 60 00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:35,879 to be clear this book doesn't just bear 61 00:02:40,970 --> 00:02:38,580 rereading I'd argue that if one truly 62 00:02:43,850 --> 00:02:40,980 wants to absorb its full impact it 63 00:02:46,009 --> 00:02:43,860 requires it on its face the narratives 64 00:02:48,410 --> 00:02:46,019 and Concepts laid out by Diana and 65 00:02:51,290 --> 00:02:48,420 American Cosmic are as compelling as 66 00:02:53,150 --> 00:02:51,300 they are surprising the first time I 67 00:02:55,130 --> 00:02:53,160 read the whole thing in one breathless 68 00:02:56,809 --> 00:02:55,140 sitting and was struck by the thought 69 00:02:59,270 --> 00:02:56,819 that it would make a thrilling Hollywood 70 00:03:01,670 --> 00:02:59,280 Blockbuster although admittedly unlike 71 00:03:03,650 --> 00:03:01,680 any that I'd ever seen before and I 72 00:03:06,110 --> 00:03:03,660 think it's easy to read American Cosmic 73 00:03:08,150 --> 00:03:06,120 once through and in doing so have your 74 00:03:09,530 --> 00:03:08,160 mind so sufficiently blown that you 75 00:03:12,170 --> 00:03:09,540 don't bother to go back and look for 76 00:03:13,850 --> 00:03:12,180 further Revelations but I'm a firm 77 00:03:16,670 --> 00:03:13,860 believer that taking that approach with 78 00:03:18,890 --> 00:03:16,680 this book is a mistake there is a much 79 00:03:21,830 --> 00:03:18,900 deeper and more challenging Vision that 80 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:21,840 Dr pasoka's work is putting forward it's 81 00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:23,640 a vision that doesn't just illuminate 82 00:03:28,430 --> 00:03:26,280 the UFO phenomenon but reframes it 83 00:03:30,949 --> 00:03:28,440 entirely within the context of our 84 00:03:33,350 --> 00:03:30,959 relationship to religion media and 85 00:03:35,449 --> 00:03:33,360 Technology revealing fundamental 86 00:03:37,729 --> 00:03:35,459 profound and at times disturbing 87 00:03:39,050 --> 00:03:37,739 questions about the very nature of our 88 00:03:42,289 --> 00:03:39,060 reality 89 00:03:44,630 --> 00:03:42,299 in the late 1940s astronomer Fred Hoyle 90 00:03:47,990 --> 00:03:44,640 said once a photograph of the earth 91 00:03:50,509 --> 00:03:48,000 taken from the outside is available a 92 00:03:52,250 --> 00:03:50,519 new idea as powerful as any in history 93 00:03:54,410 --> 00:03:52,260 will be let loose 94 00:03:56,330 --> 00:03:54,420 and I think that quote cuts to the heart 95 00:03:58,130 --> 00:03:56,340 of much of what will follow in my 96 00:03:59,690 --> 00:03:58,140 interview with Diana 97 00:04:02,570 --> 00:03:59,700 because we aren't just talking about 98 00:04:04,550 --> 00:04:02,580 Humanity's journey to space but what 99 00:04:07,070 --> 00:04:04,560 that Monumental transition tells us 100 00:04:08,270 --> 00:04:07,080 about what humanity is and what it might 101 00:04:10,369 --> 00:04:08,280 become 102 00:04:13,130 --> 00:04:10,379 it's a transition that isn't just about 103 00:04:15,589 --> 00:04:13,140 crossing a physical boundary it's about 104 00:04:18,170 --> 00:04:15,599 the change that occurs when a species is 105 00:04:20,090 --> 00:04:18,180 able to escape its Homeworld and look 106 00:04:22,850 --> 00:04:20,100 back at it from a perspective once 107 00:04:25,610 --> 00:04:22,860 thought to be reserved only for the Gods 108 00:04:27,350 --> 00:04:25,620 and it's also about the mechanisms by 109 00:04:29,870 --> 00:04:27,360 which this transmission is spread 110 00:04:31,670 --> 00:04:29,880 because although just a handful of 111 00:04:34,249 --> 00:04:31,680 people out of billions who have ever 112 00:04:36,370 --> 00:04:34,259 been born had seen that vision of the 113 00:04:39,110 --> 00:04:36,380 Earth from space with their own eyes 114 00:04:41,689 --> 00:04:39,120 once that first picture was taken and 115 00:04:44,390 --> 00:04:41,699 sent back to Earth and made public that 116 00:04:45,770 --> 00:04:44,400 image changed everyone it lives in all 117 00:04:47,990 --> 00:04:45,780 of us now 118 00:04:51,050 --> 00:04:48,000 and if you listen closely to what Diana 119 00:04:53,090 --> 00:04:51,060 is saying you can begin to unfold the 120 00:04:56,030 --> 00:04:53,100 vast implications of that seemingly 121 00:04:57,950 --> 00:04:56,040 simple idea and what it might mean for 122 00:05:00,590 --> 00:04:57,960 the future of humanity 123 00:05:03,830 --> 00:05:00,600 here is my interview with the inimitable 124 00:05:05,450 --> 00:05:03,840 Dr Diana walsh-pasulka 125 00:05:06,890 --> 00:05:05,460 so for anyone listening who isn't 126 00:05:08,990 --> 00:05:06,900 familiar with the backstory of American 127 00:05:10,850 --> 00:05:09,000 Cosmic could you briefly explain how it 128 00:05:12,950 --> 00:05:10,860 is that a scholar of religion ends up 129 00:05:15,890 --> 00:05:12,960 writing a book about UFOs 130 00:05:18,170 --> 00:05:15,900 yeah sure so that's a great question and 131 00:05:20,510 --> 00:05:18,180 this is how it happened I was I'm a 132 00:05:22,730 --> 00:05:20,520 scholar of Catholic and Christian 133 00:05:24,830 --> 00:05:22,740 history and the kinds of things that 134 00:05:27,129 --> 00:05:24,840 I've been looking at in my life have 135 00:05:30,950 --> 00:05:27,139 been miraculous events 136 00:05:34,909 --> 00:05:30,960 including Saints in the church some who 137 00:05:36,770 --> 00:05:34,919 levitate and things that you know really 138 00:05:39,529 --> 00:05:36,780 look like you know Angel's appearing in 139 00:05:41,870 --> 00:05:39,539 the sky aerial phenomena things like 140 00:05:43,310 --> 00:05:41,880 this I hadn't thought of UFOs at all I 141 00:05:45,110 --> 00:05:43,320 had never thought of UFOs that weren't 142 00:05:46,550 --> 00:05:45,120 on my radar but these are the kinds of 143 00:05:48,770 --> 00:05:46,560 things I would study and I'd look at 144 00:05:51,610 --> 00:05:48,780 them through the lens of my field which 145 00:05:54,170 --> 00:05:51,620 is that when we study this phenomena 146 00:05:55,850 --> 00:05:54,180 especially miraculous things we look at 147 00:05:58,370 --> 00:05:55,860 them from their social effects 148 00:06:00,590 --> 00:05:58,380 standpoint so we don't go in we don't 149 00:06:02,210 --> 00:06:00,600 make judgments about the beliefs of the 150 00:06:05,210 --> 00:06:02,220 people who see these things or or 151 00:06:07,550 --> 00:06:05,220 experience them we don't weigh in on 152 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:07,560 whether or not these things are real or 153 00:06:11,570 --> 00:06:09,960 not real and we basically study their 154 00:06:13,730 --> 00:06:11,580 social effects and the reason we do that 155 00:06:15,890 --> 00:06:13,740 is because most people people in the 156 00:06:17,529 --> 00:06:15,900 world happen to be religious so in the 157 00:06:21,110 --> 00:06:17,539 United States we have we tend to forget 158 00:06:23,930 --> 00:06:21,120 but a good portion of the world are 159 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:23,940 religious and religions are very very 160 00:06:29,330 --> 00:06:27,180 powerful forces so this is what we do 161 00:06:32,450 --> 00:06:29,340 and the the research a lot of people 162 00:06:34,490 --> 00:06:32,460 also uh we teach about religion because 163 00:06:36,650 --> 00:06:34,500 a lot of people don't know like they 164 00:06:38,450 --> 00:06:36,660 might even be religious but then don't 165 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:38,460 even know some of the tenets of their 166 00:06:44,150 --> 00:06:41,220 own faith so uh we do a lot of you know 167 00:06:45,590 --> 00:06:44,160 I would call it uh re-education because 168 00:06:48,830 --> 00:06:45,600 they think they know but they actually 169 00:06:52,070 --> 00:06:48,840 don't so we talk about religion and so 170 00:06:54,650 --> 00:06:52,080 how did I come upon the study of UFOs I 171 00:06:57,290 --> 00:06:54,660 had been doing this work on a book about 172 00:07:00,230 --> 00:06:57,300 the Catholic and Orthodox Christian 173 00:07:04,430 --> 00:07:00,240 doctrine of purgatory and so this this 174 00:07:07,370 --> 00:07:04,440 idea is an afterlife destination in 175 00:07:08,749 --> 00:07:07,380 Catholic thought where if you die and 176 00:07:10,189 --> 00:07:08,759 your soul is not good enough to go to 177 00:07:14,270 --> 00:07:10,199 heaven it goes to this place called 178 00:07:17,629 --> 00:07:14,280 Purgatory now this was codified in the 179 00:07:19,730 --> 00:07:17,639 1200s and so it wasn't something that 180 00:07:21,469 --> 00:07:19,740 was codified in Christian belief until 181 00:07:23,330 --> 00:07:21,479 that time and that's a long time you 182 00:07:24,890 --> 00:07:23,340 know think about the United States you 183 00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:24,900 know we're not that old like you know 184 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:28,800 that's 1200 years you know after uh 185 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:30,960 after Christianity comes about that this 186 00:07:36,469 --> 00:07:32,940 this belief is codified but then it 187 00:07:39,950 --> 00:07:36,479 seems to go away in the 20th century and 188 00:07:42,230 --> 00:07:39,960 so I wanted to figure out like why I 189 00:07:45,170 --> 00:07:42,240 mean this was a major belief what I 190 00:07:47,809 --> 00:07:45,180 found out was that it basically came 191 00:07:50,330 --> 00:07:47,819 about through people's practice of going 192 00:07:52,010 --> 00:07:50,340 into caves there's a Purgatory cave in 193 00:07:54,409 --> 00:07:52,020 Ireland actually 194 00:07:57,350 --> 00:07:54,419 in an island called Loch durg it's still 195 00:07:58,909 --> 00:07:57,360 there and uh the cave is is no longer 196 00:08:02,029 --> 00:07:58,919 there but the places and people still go 197 00:08:05,029 --> 00:08:02,039 there and they do a Penance okay so the 198 00:08:07,610 --> 00:08:05,039 the actual Doctrine came from people's 199 00:08:10,070 --> 00:08:07,620 practice of going into these caves and 200 00:08:14,330 --> 00:08:10,080 so what I do is I look at the ways in 201 00:08:17,029 --> 00:08:14,340 which these beliefs emerge and so um I 202 00:08:18,469 --> 00:08:17,039 so what happened was at the end of my 203 00:08:23,150 --> 00:08:18,479 time of writing this book about 204 00:08:26,089 --> 00:08:23,160 purgatory this was in 2012. I had a huge 205 00:08:28,490 --> 00:08:26,099 um document of reports because I look in 206 00:08:31,909 --> 00:08:28,500 archives and I go to libraries and I 207 00:08:35,149 --> 00:08:31,919 look at reports from like 800 1200 1400 208 00:08:37,870 --> 00:08:35,159 and um I came I had a lot of reports of 209 00:08:41,269 --> 00:08:37,880 aerial phenomena and things like that 210 00:08:44,329 --> 00:08:41,279 and a lot of times when say a Catholic 211 00:08:47,570 --> 00:08:44,339 in France in 1800s saw an aerial 212 00:08:49,490 --> 00:08:47,580 phenomena they would identify it as like 213 00:08:52,009 --> 00:08:49,500 a bean from purgatory or a soul from 214 00:08:53,329 --> 00:08:52,019 purgatory and they would pray it back 215 00:08:55,250 --> 00:08:53,339 into purgatory or something like that 216 00:08:56,930 --> 00:08:55,260 you know so they had their ways of 217 00:08:58,490 --> 00:08:56,940 dealing with these things and I had a 218 00:09:00,470 --> 00:08:58,500 lot of these reports and the patterns 219 00:09:01,790 --> 00:09:00,480 were really interesting to me but I 220 00:09:03,350 --> 00:09:01,800 honestly didn't know what to do with it 221 00:09:05,990 --> 00:09:03,360 and I really wasn't going to do anything 222 00:09:07,850 --> 00:09:06,000 with it it just so happened that I was 223 00:09:09,590 --> 00:09:07,860 having coffee with a friend of mine and 224 00:09:10,850 --> 00:09:09,600 we were talking about the next book I 225 00:09:12,949 --> 00:09:10,860 was going to write which was going to be 226 00:09:16,610 --> 00:09:12,959 about this bishop in the South you know 227 00:09:18,350 --> 00:09:16,620 and so I showed him this this document 228 00:09:20,090 --> 00:09:18,360 and he looked through it 229 00:09:22,850 --> 00:09:20,100 and he said 230 00:09:26,509 --> 00:09:22,860 you know this is really cool it looks 231 00:09:28,430 --> 00:09:26,519 like Steven Spielberg films and I was 232 00:09:29,630 --> 00:09:28,440 like Steven Spielberg from films what do 233 00:09:30,410 --> 00:09:29,640 you mean and he said you know it looks 234 00:09:37,430 --> 00:09:30,420 like 235 00:09:38,990 --> 00:09:37,440 was crazy uh that week there was a 236 00:09:40,430 --> 00:09:39,000 conference for people who are 237 00:09:43,370 --> 00:09:40,440 experiencers 238 00:09:44,449 --> 00:09:43,380 and he suggested I I go to that and I 239 00:09:45,889 --> 00:09:44,459 thought it was a good idea I was like 240 00:09:48,410 --> 00:09:45,899 okay I'm gonna give it a child go and 241 00:09:50,509 --> 00:09:48,420 see and I met Chris Bledsoe there you 242 00:09:53,210 --> 00:09:50,519 know I met a lot of people who are 243 00:09:55,730 --> 00:09:53,220 experiencers and when they talked it 244 00:09:57,350 --> 00:09:55,740 sounded exactly like the document I had 245 00:09:59,269 --> 00:09:57,360 it sounded like you know people who 246 00:10:01,610 --> 00:09:59,279 talked about the same things in 1400 247 00:10:03,470 --> 00:10:01,620 they talked about the same things in 800 248 00:10:05,630 --> 00:10:03,480 you know so there was this historical 249 00:10:09,230 --> 00:10:05,640 narrative that seemed to still be 250 00:10:13,790 --> 00:10:09,240 happening and so that's how I started to 251 00:10:15,769 --> 00:10:13,800 study uh UFOs and I thought it would be 252 00:10:18,829 --> 00:10:15,779 pretty easy to do I thought that once I 253 00:10:20,810 --> 00:10:18,839 got into the study of UFOs that 254 00:10:23,090 --> 00:10:20,820 you know it's like a cut and dry type 255 00:10:26,389 --> 00:10:23,100 thing you know that wow we live in a new 256 00:10:28,750 --> 00:10:26,399 infrastructure it's digital I grew up in 257 00:10:32,810 --> 00:10:28,760 you know when I was doing graduate work 258 00:10:35,150 --> 00:10:32,820 uh in Silicon Valley during the 90s the 259 00:10:37,970 --> 00:10:35,160 late 90s you know I saw the shift in 260 00:10:40,370 --> 00:10:37,980 infrastructure to digital and I thought 261 00:10:43,310 --> 00:10:40,380 well of course we're going to have a 262 00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:43,320 digital type of sacred you know that's 263 00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:46,320 how I was looking at it but I was it was 264 00:10:51,829 --> 00:10:48,240 a lot more complicated than that so 265 00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:51,839 that's how I segued into studying UFOs 266 00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:54,480 from studying Catholic and Christian 267 00:10:58,250 --> 00:10:56,040 history 268 00:11:00,949 --> 00:10:58,260 it's amazing I want to take a little 269 00:11:02,269 --> 00:11:00,959 time to talk about Tyler his story arc 270 00:11:04,069 --> 00:11:02,279 with an American Cosmic is really 271 00:11:05,810 --> 00:11:04,079 remarkable and in many ways it provides 272 00:11:07,370 --> 00:11:05,820 the perfect roadmap for discussing some 273 00:11:08,990 --> 00:11:07,380 of the more compelling and provocative 274 00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:09,000 themes of the book 275 00:11:12,949 --> 00:11:11,040 so when you first started talking with 276 00:11:15,290 --> 00:11:12,959 Tyler you asked him why it was that he 277 00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:15,300 wanted to speak to you he said that one 278 00:11:19,009 --> 00:11:17,220 of his mentors in the space program said 279 00:11:21,410 --> 00:11:19,019 that the next big breakthrough in his 280 00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:21,420 field will come from your field what do 281 00:11:24,350 --> 00:11:22,800 you think he meant by that and do you 282 00:11:31,009 --> 00:11:24,360 agree 283 00:11:35,150 --> 00:11:31,019 um when I be I started this project in 284 00:11:37,550 --> 00:11:35,160 2012 and it ended in 2018 and then 285 00:11:40,130 --> 00:11:37,560 American you know Cosmic was published 286 00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:40,140 in 2019. so 287 00:11:47,449 --> 00:11:44,000 in the beginning I met Tyler through 288 00:11:50,690 --> 00:11:47,459 experiences who I knew and I was 289 00:11:52,730 --> 00:11:50,700 reticent to meet him because he I knew 290 00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:52,740 he was affiliated with um and probably 291 00:11:57,410 --> 00:11:55,680 intelligence groups and I really didn't 292 00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:57,420 want that in my life you know I thought 293 00:12:01,670 --> 00:11:59,760 I could do this research without doing 294 00:12:02,630 --> 00:12:01,680 that but that's actually completely 295 00:12:05,569 --> 00:12:02,640 wrong 296 00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:05,579 they've been involved in this obviously 297 00:12:09,910 --> 00:12:07,920 from the 1940s onwards so you can't 298 00:12:14,569 --> 00:12:09,920 actually separate 299 00:12:16,490 --> 00:12:14,579 what they do from the study of UFOs uaps 300 00:12:18,829 --> 00:12:16,500 okay you just can't but it took me a 301 00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:18,839 while to get used to that idea so I 302 00:12:22,910 --> 00:12:20,760 didn't actually want to talk to him 303 00:12:24,829 --> 00:12:22,920 um but I did say yes we can start on the 304 00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:24,839 email correspondence and text 305 00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:27,839 correspondents which we did and so I was 306 00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:31,620 really he used to say I was blunt which 307 00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:33,600 I guess I am but I just wanted to know 308 00:12:38,509 --> 00:12:36,720 so I said you know well why would you 309 00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:38,519 want to talk to me you know I'm doing 310 00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:40,320 this type of study I thought perhaps 311 00:12:45,410 --> 00:12:42,300 that he wanted to give me disinformation 312 00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:45,420 because I'm uh an academic at that point 313 00:12:50,449 --> 00:12:48,000 I'm a good academic I'm successful you 314 00:12:52,430 --> 00:12:50,459 know I'm a full Professor I'm the chair 315 00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:52,440 of my department and I'm publishing with 316 00:12:57,949 --> 00:12:55,440 Oxford so I already have a record of 317 00:13:01,250 --> 00:12:57,959 decent you know good scholarship 318 00:13:03,050 --> 00:13:01,260 basically so I didn't want to mess that 319 00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:03,060 up with you know getting involved with 320 00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:06,360 somebody who's planting disinfo on me 321 00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:10,320 and so I voice all those concerns and he 322 00:13:14,569 --> 00:13:13,200 explained he said no he said I you know 323 00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:14,579 you don't even have to I don't care if 324 00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:15,839 you write a book or you don't write a 325 00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:17,279 book you know yeah and yeah she never 326 00:13:21,769 --> 00:13:19,740 well he's in the books so he did care at 327 00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:21,779 some point he had to read everything and 328 00:13:25,009 --> 00:13:23,220 you know take out some things that he 329 00:13:27,290 --> 00:13:25,019 didn't want in there so what happened 330 00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:27,300 was that he said that it was 331 00:13:33,230 --> 00:13:30,959 Consciousness and also the types of 332 00:13:35,629 --> 00:13:33,240 things the types of data that I had were 333 00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,639 very important to him because he's 334 00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:37,920 looking at these contact events in in 335 00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:40,800 real time and he's also interfacing with 336 00:13:46,190 --> 00:13:43,620 this phenomena within you know his job 337 00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:46,200 and so of course he wants to know what 338 00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:48,480 it is and if there's somebody like me 339 00:13:53,090 --> 00:13:51,120 who does have access to say the Vatican 340 00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:53,100 archives which isn't an easy place to 341 00:13:59,389 --> 00:13:56,220 get into or the space archives again not 342 00:14:02,750 --> 00:13:59,399 easy to get into and can also identify 343 00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:02,760 the cultural contexts the languages and 344 00:14:08,210 --> 00:14:05,220 things like that that describe these 345 00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:08,220 events in history this of course is good 346 00:14:13,009 --> 00:14:11,279 data and so he really wanted me to help 347 00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:13,019 him with that so 348 00:14:16,910 --> 00:14:15,060 um so that's what he basically said it 349 00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:16,920 made a lot of sense to me because if 350 00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:19,440 it's if these things are real which at 351 00:14:23,930 --> 00:14:20,880 the time I did not believe that they 352 00:14:25,490 --> 00:14:23,940 were I recognize that he believed it and 353 00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:25,500 if he believed it then of course 354 00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:28,620 absolutely what I knew would help him so 355 00:14:33,410 --> 00:14:31,560 that's what prompted me to begin my 356 00:14:36,050 --> 00:14:33,420 working relationship with them 357 00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:36,060 you talked in the book about how Tyler's 358 00:14:39,949 --> 00:14:38,160 protocols that he uses to help enhance 359 00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:39,959 and enable his communication with 360 00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:42,240 whatever this intelligence might be and 361 00:14:45,769 --> 00:14:44,040 you saw parallels between Tyler's 362 00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:45,779 practices and that of other types of 363 00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:47,279 Highly Effective and highly creative 364 00:14:51,170 --> 00:14:49,500 people can you talk a little bit about 365 00:14:53,210 --> 00:14:51,180 what you've learned from studying these 366 00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:53,220 types of protocols and what conclusions 367 00:14:56,689 --> 00:14:55,320 we might be able to draw from them 368 00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:56,699 yes 369 00:15:04,430 --> 00:15:00,959 so it almost immediately I recognized 370 00:15:08,030 --> 00:15:04,440 that he was engaged in what I would call 371 00:15:10,129 --> 00:15:08,040 monastic protocols and from my training 372 00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:10,139 in religious studies 373 00:15:13,850 --> 00:15:12,000 um and in you know anybody who goes to 374 00:15:15,949 --> 00:15:13,860 religious studies understands that 375 00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:15,959 within most of the world's religions 376 00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:18,959 like Hinduism Buddhism Judaism you know 377 00:15:24,110 --> 00:15:21,180 take any one of them Christianity there 378 00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:24,120 are these monastic uh practices that 379 00:15:29,750 --> 00:15:26,399 people do like a lot of people engage in 380 00:15:31,490 --> 00:15:29,760 them with yoga you know yoga is a 381 00:15:34,189 --> 00:15:31,500 quote-unquote religious practice within 382 00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:34,199 Hinduism and these practices are Body 383 00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:37,440 Mind practices and the goal of these 384 00:15:44,329 --> 00:15:40,560 practices is a mystical Union with 385 00:15:46,430 --> 00:15:44,339 whatever deity that religion proposes so 386 00:15:49,850 --> 00:15:46,440 and when I say a mystical Union what I'm 387 00:15:53,210 --> 00:15:49,860 talking about is it's supposed to put 388 00:15:55,610 --> 00:15:53,220 you in a state of connection with with 389 00:15:57,710 --> 00:15:55,620 something Divine okay with some type of 390 00:15:59,050 --> 00:15:57,720 divinity so these he's been asked to 391 00:16:03,230 --> 00:15:59,060 practices 392 00:16:04,910 --> 00:16:03,240 are if you were to take every religious 393 00:16:07,730 --> 00:16:04,920 tradition and take the monastic 394 00:16:09,769 --> 00:16:07,740 practices and put them side by side you 395 00:16:13,329 --> 00:16:09,779 would see a pattern and they're very 396 00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:13,339 similar so if a person who knows this 397 00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:16,740 sees somebody who is unaware that that's 398 00:16:20,509 --> 00:16:18,060 what they're doing but they're doing it 399 00:16:22,189 --> 00:16:20,519 anyway I mean so it wasn't just Tyler it 400 00:16:24,769 --> 00:16:22,199 was a lot of the people that I came 401 00:16:26,689 --> 00:16:24,779 across who were doing the same kind of 402 00:16:28,850 --> 00:16:26,699 thing that Tyler was doing not all of 403 00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:28,860 them could be in the book Gary Nolan had 404 00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:30,720 his own right he's James in American 405 00:16:35,689 --> 00:16:32,639 Cosmic all of these people were 406 00:16:37,249 --> 00:16:35,699 practicing these kinds of protocols and 407 00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:37,259 they were engaged in highly creative 408 00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:41,519 work some which resulted in patents and 409 00:16:49,129 --> 00:16:44,600 you know Wonderful kinds of Technologies 410 00:16:51,710 --> 00:16:49,139 and so I immediately identified them and 411 00:16:53,930 --> 00:16:51,720 noticed that he did that it also made me 412 00:16:55,009 --> 00:16:53,940 want to know 413 00:16:59,090 --> 00:16:55,019 um the scholarship the latest 414 00:17:02,269 --> 00:16:59,100 scholarship on creativity there are 415 00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:02,279 people in like neuroscience and in 416 00:17:07,490 --> 00:17:04,380 Psychology and people at my University 417 00:17:09,409 --> 00:17:07,500 as well who study brain states of people 418 00:17:11,329 --> 00:17:09,419 who are highly creative what they found 419 00:17:13,730 --> 00:17:11,339 was that when people are in these very 420 00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:13,740 highly creative States a lot of times 421 00:17:19,069 --> 00:17:17,220 their frontal cortex shuts down so there 422 00:17:20,809 --> 00:17:19,079 I think it's called excuse me for not 423 00:17:23,449 --> 00:17:20,819 getting this right it's out of my field 424 00:17:26,689 --> 00:17:23,459 although I read a lot about it the place 425 00:17:28,970 --> 00:17:26,699 where you identify with your ego okay so 426 00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:28,980 that kind of gets shut down I think it's 427 00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:30,840 called The frontal cortex and what 428 00:17:36,650 --> 00:17:33,480 happens is that a lot of times people 429 00:17:39,470 --> 00:17:36,660 will associate what they created not 430 00:17:42,169 --> 00:17:39,480 with them but with some external agent 431 00:17:43,970 --> 00:17:42,179 they'll say oh yeah that was just given 432 00:17:45,710 --> 00:17:43,980 to me by you know it was a so I called 433 00:17:47,330 --> 00:17:45,720 it the download process which is 434 00:17:49,310 --> 00:17:47,340 something that a lot of people had 435 00:17:52,130 --> 00:17:49,320 termed that a lot of people use I 436 00:17:53,630 --> 00:17:52,140 started calling it that in my 2015 I was 437 00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:53,640 like these people are downloading it 438 00:17:57,049 --> 00:17:54,720 sounds like you know it sounds like 439 00:17:59,870 --> 00:17:57,059 they're computer processors and they're 440 00:18:01,190 --> 00:17:59,880 just downloading info you know 441 00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:01,200 um because they're not saying that it's 442 00:18:06,890 --> 00:18:03,600 theirs and they're usually ascribing it 443 00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:06,900 to an external agent so these protocols 444 00:18:12,169 --> 00:18:10,080 were instrumental in getting Tyler and 445 00:18:13,730 --> 00:18:12,179 other people into these states these 446 00:18:15,950 --> 00:18:13,740 highly creative States 447 00:18:17,210 --> 00:18:15,960 I find it really fascinating something 448 00:18:19,070 --> 00:18:17,220 that really strikes me about the 449 00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:19,080 protocols is just like how mundane they 450 00:18:23,390 --> 00:18:20,640 are at stuff like drink water and get 451 00:18:25,010 --> 00:18:23,400 enough sleep and go outside but also you 452 00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:25,020 know when you try to follow them it's 453 00:18:28,850 --> 00:18:27,120 like really challenging to stick to for 454 00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:28,860 anyone who's like at all embedded in our 455 00:18:32,810 --> 00:18:30,960 culture and it almost feels like our 456 00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:32,820 Modern Life is designed in such a way as 457 00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:35,039 to cut us off from the things that give 458 00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:36,840 that like the most basic things that we 459 00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,640 need to kind of operate at our full 460 00:18:43,070 --> 00:18:40,799 potential so like what do you make of 461 00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:43,080 that like it's just the Simplicity of of 462 00:18:48,110 --> 00:18:44,520 the protocols 463 00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:48,120 yeah it's subtle okay so when you look 464 00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:51,000 at the protocols you're like oh that 465 00:18:55,090 --> 00:18:53,640 seems just like common sense right but 466 00:18:58,330 --> 00:18:55,100 try it 467 00:19:01,370 --> 00:18:58,340 for a week and also not just that but 468 00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:01,380 the ways that okay so let's take the 469 00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:03,600 protocol of hydration so Tyler would 470 00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:04,799 make sure that he was completely 471 00:19:09,230 --> 00:19:06,720 hydrated all the time and he had 472 00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:09,240 protocols for doing this well later I 473 00:19:13,610 --> 00:19:11,820 learned after I published my book 474 00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:13,620 um a lot of people contacted me who were 475 00:19:18,409 --> 00:19:16,320 who did download and a lot of them are 476 00:19:20,570 --> 00:19:18,419 people that are just unbelievable 477 00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:20,580 downloaders like brilliant people and 478 00:19:24,650 --> 00:19:22,860 they corrected a lot of things that I 479 00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:24,660 said and so 480 00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:25,440 um 481 00:19:30,529 --> 00:19:27,840 this is one of the things that that was 482 00:19:32,029 --> 00:19:30,539 explained was like the science behind 483 00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:32,039 the protocol so let's take hydration 484 00:19:36,529 --> 00:19:34,799 like I said okay so why then would 485 00:19:39,049 --> 00:19:36,539 hydration be something that would be 486 00:19:40,610 --> 00:19:39,059 important to the creative process it was 487 00:19:43,130 --> 00:19:40,620 explained to me that 488 00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:43,140 you know water conducts and so a lot of 489 00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:45,120 the electrical activity that happens in 490 00:19:50,690 --> 00:19:47,760 our brain needs to have the best 491 00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:50,700 substrate and so if you're dehydrated in 492 00:19:55,010 --> 00:19:52,080 any way you're not going to be working 493 00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:55,020 at your full capacity so that's why 494 00:19:59,870 --> 00:19:57,240 hydration is so important so a lot of 495 00:20:01,130 --> 00:19:59,880 the things that we associate now with 496 00:20:05,570 --> 00:20:01,140 you know these monastic product 497 00:20:08,150 --> 00:20:05,580 Protocols are actually things that are 498 00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:08,160 really necessary and you made a good 499 00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:10,320 point when you said that it seems like 500 00:20:16,909 --> 00:20:13,919 today our lives are designed to cut us 501 00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:16,919 off from being able to live like this 502 00:20:26,690 --> 00:20:20,880 and I can I can verify this so when I 503 00:20:28,909 --> 00:20:26,700 met Tyler in 2012 by 2015 I was I was 504 00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:28,919 seriously thinking I really need to do 505 00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:31,200 these protocols but that's how long it 506 00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:33,120 took me to be able to implement them 507 00:20:39,289 --> 00:20:36,720 because I was a mom of young kids any 508 00:20:40,610 --> 00:20:39,299 parent of young kids knows that getting 509 00:20:43,370 --> 00:20:40,620 enough sleep 510 00:20:45,409 --> 00:20:43,380 that's gonna be almost impossible not 511 00:20:47,390 --> 00:20:45,419 only that but I was the chair of my 512 00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:47,400 department at the time 513 00:20:52,370 --> 00:20:49,980 um which is a hard thing to be as a full 514 00:20:56,330 --> 00:20:52,380 professor and I had a lot of students I 515 00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:56,340 still do so I have usually about 110 to 516 00:21:03,230 --> 00:21:00,000 140 students every semester and I do the 517 00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:03,240 best for them you know I try and that 518 00:21:06,590 --> 00:21:05,280 takes a lot of time and energy as well 519 00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:06,600 as the other things that I had on my 520 00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:08,520 plate so it was almost impossible for me 521 00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:12,000 to get into the state where I could I 522 00:21:16,130 --> 00:21:13,500 could do the protocols you have to 523 00:21:18,350 --> 00:21:16,140 really do you have to really try hard 524 00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:18,360 um people like Tyler though 525 00:21:24,049 --> 00:21:21,840 um his his you know he didn't have the 526 00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:24,059 kinds of life that I had so it was 527 00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:27,360 easier for him so and I must point this 528 00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:29,520 out that in the history of philosophy 529 00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:32,760 Philosophy by the way philosophers like 530 00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:35,520 the Greek philosophers in Athens Plato 531 00:21:40,190 --> 00:21:37,799 Socrates this is you know 2500 years ago 532 00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:40,200 these people all practice protocols but 533 00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:43,440 they did so in a very privileged 534 00:21:48,409 --> 00:21:46,080 environment women were you know took 535 00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:48,419 care of making the food uh there were 536 00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:51,120 slaves that took care of bringing the 537 00:21:57,049 --> 00:21:53,640 food you know so these guys basically 538 00:21:59,330 --> 00:21:57,059 these men had the ability to engage in 539 00:22:00,730 --> 00:21:59,340 these protocols so um I think this is 540 00:22:03,710 --> 00:22:00,740 something that we need to understand 541 00:22:06,169 --> 00:22:03,720 that yes it's not just Modern Life but 542 00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:06,179 it's I think it's been life forever you 543 00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:07,679 know human life forever 544 00:22:10,970 --> 00:22:08,880 um I've been learning a lot about 545 00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:10,980 indigenous societies the indigenous 546 00:22:16,370 --> 00:22:13,260 Societies in Australia 547 00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:16,380 um who actually do practice protocols 548 00:22:21,049 --> 00:22:19,200 and they do it as a group and it seems 549 00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:21,059 like and they they have a highly 550 00:22:25,210 --> 00:22:23,520 effective ways of getting into these 551 00:22:28,310 --> 00:22:25,220 creative States 552 00:22:30,649 --> 00:22:28,320 together not just as you know 553 00:22:31,610 --> 00:22:30,659 individuals so there's a lot we can 554 00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,620 learn 555 00:22:36,049 --> 00:22:33,840 um it's we're at the very beginning of 556 00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:36,059 really understanding this type you know 557 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:39,600 creative state how they help us and you 558 00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:41,880 know how they help us as societies not 559 00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:43,740 just as individuals 560 00:22:47,690 --> 00:22:45,600 that's really interesting 561 00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:47,700 I think that one of the most challenging 562 00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:49,679 parts of Tyler's story is that if we 563 00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:52,080 accept that what he experiences as a 564 00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:54,000 download is truly a communication with a 565 00:22:58,669 --> 00:22:56,159 non-local intelligence then what is it 566 00:22:59,930 --> 00:22:58,679 that he is communicating with exactly I 567 00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,940 know you don't have any way of answering 568 00:23:03,770 --> 00:23:01,919 that question definitively but as an 569 00:23:06,110 --> 00:23:03,780 academic and as a scholar of religious 570 00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:06,120 studies can you maybe help us frame this 571 00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:07,980 how do you approach trying to understand 572 00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:09,840 what it is that Tyler might be 573 00:23:15,289 --> 00:23:11,520 communicating with 574 00:23:17,149 --> 00:23:15,299 yeah that's a great question and from a 575 00:23:19,789 --> 00:23:17,159 person who's who's done Historical 576 00:23:21,909 --> 00:23:19,799 Research into religion I would say that 577 00:23:25,549 --> 00:23:21,919 it's the the 578 00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:25,559 channeling of an external agent and I 579 00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:28,500 use the term external agents for these 580 00:23:31,789 --> 00:23:30,600 things that people believe they're in 581 00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:31,799 contact with 582 00:23:36,169 --> 00:23:34,320 um it's nothing new so as long as human 583 00:23:38,029 --> 00:23:36,179 history as long as we've had written 584 00:23:41,210 --> 00:23:38,039 human history people have believed that 585 00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:41,220 they've been in contact with um beings 586 00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:43,260 um they've had different words for these 587 00:23:47,390 --> 00:23:44,340 beings 588 00:23:49,970 --> 00:23:47,400 in American Cosmic I compared Tyler's 589 00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:49,980 connection to what he believed he called 590 00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:51,900 these off Planet by the way he called 591 00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:53,580 them off-planet entities he didn't call 592 00:23:57,310 --> 00:23:55,679 them extraterrestrials 593 00:24:00,169 --> 00:23:57,320 um but he made a distinction between 594 00:24:03,289 --> 00:24:00,179 angels and off-planet entities 595 00:24:06,470 --> 00:24:03,299 uh those were different in his mind and 596 00:24:09,970 --> 00:24:06,480 so I compared him to Ramona John who is 597 00:24:12,289 --> 00:24:09,980 This brilliant Indian mathematician and 598 00:24:15,230 --> 00:24:12,299 ramanujon believed that and by the way 599 00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:15,240 his his mathematical equations are so 600 00:24:18,770 --> 00:24:16,620 sophisticated that people are still 601 00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:18,780 working on them now today there's a 602 00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:20,640 whole Journal devoted just to his his 603 00:24:26,990 --> 00:24:24,240 work and he used to say that uh the 604 00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:27,000 goddess he's Hindu the goddess Lakshmi 605 00:24:32,570 --> 00:24:29,520 would would whisper these equations in 606 00:24:35,390 --> 00:24:32,580 his ear and that's how he got these 607 00:24:37,549 --> 00:24:35,400 equations and so that seemed to me you 608 00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:37,559 know he used the term Lakshmi 609 00:24:42,529 --> 00:24:40,080 um Tyler used the term off Planet 610 00:24:46,190 --> 00:24:42,539 entities and you have to understand his 611 00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:46,200 context so you know as I think you know 612 00:24:51,730 --> 00:24:49,200 as a kid uh when I say kid you know 613 00:24:54,830 --> 00:24:51,740 someone really young you know 18 19 20 614 00:24:56,990 --> 00:24:54,840 he's he starts off with NASA he starts 615 00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:57,000 working at Nasa and so his whole 616 00:25:02,450 --> 00:25:00,000 environment his whole life is the space 617 00:25:05,169 --> 00:25:02,460 program so if he's in contact with 618 00:25:10,850 --> 00:25:05,179 something he's most likely going to 619 00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:10,860 associate it with space and he's he he 620 00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:13,860 believes his interface helps the space 621 00:25:19,909 --> 00:25:17,220 program so so all of that is tied into 622 00:25:22,370 --> 00:25:19,919 his study now do we take him literally 623 00:25:24,590 --> 00:25:22,380 at his word okay so that's a question 624 00:25:26,930 --> 00:25:24,600 that people ask you know is he literally 625 00:25:29,390 --> 00:25:26,940 in contact with and you know these 626 00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:29,400 external things that are off planet 627 00:25:34,909 --> 00:25:32,340 um I don't know so in my field we don't 628 00:25:37,070 --> 00:25:34,919 actually weigh in on the truth or 629 00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:37,080 falsity of a person's claims that's like 630 00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:38,340 saying you know 631 00:25:44,210 --> 00:25:41,460 um Israel manage on actually in contact 632 00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:44,220 with Lakshmi you know I don't want to 633 00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:47,039 say yes and I don't want to say no but I 634 00:25:52,850 --> 00:25:49,500 certainly think that it's a really good 635 00:25:56,269 --> 00:25:52,860 question and we need to you know we need 636 00:25:58,190 --> 00:25:56,279 to like we should not discount these 637 00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:58,200 people who are game changers in our 638 00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,000 societies right we shouldn't because 639 00:26:05,390 --> 00:26:02,159 they're the game changers so we should 640 00:26:07,610 --> 00:26:05,400 pay attention and not discount what 641 00:26:09,289 --> 00:26:07,620 they're saying 642 00:26:11,630 --> 00:26:09,299 absolutely 643 00:26:13,610 --> 00:26:11,640 another challenging aspect of Tyler's 644 00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:13,620 story is that the United States Space 645 00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:15,900 Program seems to be not just aware of 646 00:26:19,909 --> 00:26:18,240 but perhaps actively leveraging Tyler's 647 00:26:22,610 --> 00:26:19,919 Communications and downloads from this 648 00:26:24,409 --> 00:26:22,620 non-local intelligence it seems almost 649 00:26:27,169 --> 00:26:24,419 Reckless considering that they seem to 650 00:26:29,090 --> 00:26:27,179 like not necessarily know what that what 651 00:26:30,409 --> 00:26:29,100 that is but he's interfacing with so 652 00:26:31,970 --> 00:26:30,419 like what do you what do you make of 653 00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:31,980 that 654 00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:38,940 space program so the two viable space 655 00:26:43,970 --> 00:26:41,840 programs until just recently have been 656 00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:43,980 our program which is the United States 657 00:26:49,250 --> 00:26:45,840 space program and of course the Russian 658 00:26:51,830 --> 00:26:49,260 space program and what happened in the 659 00:26:53,149 --> 00:26:51,840 very beginning of my study was that I 660 00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:53,159 went back and did a lot of Historical 661 00:26:57,289 --> 00:26:54,960 Research into 662 00:27:00,769 --> 00:26:57,299 who it was who 663 00:27:03,049 --> 00:27:00,779 you know who created who allowed us to 664 00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:03,059 leave Earth and these are people like 665 00:27:08,750 --> 00:27:06,720 Jack Parsons and Constantine Tchaikovsky 666 00:27:10,990 --> 00:27:08,760 in the Russian Space Program they're the 667 00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:11,000 ones who came up with the the equations 668 00:27:15,769 --> 00:27:13,200 that then allowed people to put together 669 00:27:18,049 --> 00:27:15,779 rockets and things like that now they 670 00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:18,059 believed that they were each in in 671 00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,760 communication with external agents so in 672 00:27:24,769 --> 00:27:22,559 Constantine's case 673 00:27:28,190 --> 00:27:24,779 uh he believed that he was in contact 674 00:27:29,870 --> 00:27:28,200 with Angelic Cosmic beings okay and he 675 00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:29,880 said that these Cosmic beings were 676 00:27:33,049 --> 00:27:31,200 always trying to talk to us they're 677 00:27:35,330 --> 00:27:33,059 always talking to us but only certain 678 00:27:37,010 --> 00:27:35,340 human beings are able to listen to them 679 00:27:40,190 --> 00:27:37,020 they communicate through symbols 680 00:27:43,370 --> 00:27:40,200 symbolic languages like math music art 681 00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:43,380 things like that and so this was his 682 00:27:48,610 --> 00:27:45,840 belief system Parsons on the other hand 683 00:27:52,250 --> 00:27:48,620 his belief system was a non-Christian 684 00:27:53,810 --> 00:27:52,260 esoteric kind of Aleister Crowley uh 685 00:27:56,510 --> 00:27:53,820 belief system he believed he was in 686 00:27:58,850 --> 00:27:56,520 contact with external beings some of 687 00:28:01,310 --> 00:27:58,860 which he believed were extraterrestrial 688 00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:01,320 or what you know it'd be similar to this 689 00:28:07,810 --> 00:28:04,559 off-planet idea but it was infused with 690 00:28:10,490 --> 00:28:07,820 a Crowley kind of like 691 00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:10,500 uh I hate to say it but you know 692 00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:13,440 weirdness that I can readily understand 693 00:28:18,289 --> 00:28:15,600 why our space program would want to 694 00:28:20,750 --> 00:28:18,299 distance themselves from that 695 00:28:24,289 --> 00:28:20,760 um because it's pretty weird 696 00:28:26,090 --> 00:28:24,299 whereas the Space Program you know it 697 00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:26,100 was weird too but it was still kind of 698 00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:27,840 within this kind of Christian narrative 699 00:28:33,049 --> 00:28:30,240 right that Constantine called these 700 00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:33,059 things Angels so today uh the reason why 701 00:28:42,890 --> 00:28:38,000 I think that these skills that Tyler has 702 00:28:44,930 --> 00:28:42,900 are utilized uh in a way in which you 703 00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:44,940 know think about it this way 704 00:28:49,549 --> 00:28:47,940 in my field we're gonna you know it 705 00:28:51,289 --> 00:28:49,559 would only be in Academia where we're 706 00:28:53,810 --> 00:28:51,299 going to be super hung up on is this 707 00:28:56,390 --> 00:28:53,820 real or not you know is this but if you 708 00:28:58,789 --> 00:28:56,400 are actually involved in a space race if 709 00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:58,799 it works you're going to use it so what 710 00:29:03,169 --> 00:29:01,440 happened was that astronauts and people 711 00:29:04,669 --> 00:29:03,179 who were interfacing with the rockets 712 00:29:07,370 --> 00:29:04,679 and things like that 713 00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:07,380 um there were psychological tests that 714 00:29:13,070 --> 00:29:10,140 that the Space Program utilized in order 715 00:29:16,610 --> 00:29:13,080 to identify the best of the people the 716 00:29:18,649 --> 00:29:16,620 people that fit their criteria uh that 717 00:29:20,930 --> 00:29:18,659 would be then they would like be 718 00:29:23,149 --> 00:29:20,940 recruited and placed in these positions 719 00:29:24,710 --> 00:29:23,159 so that's really what happened so a lot 720 00:29:26,690 --> 00:29:24,720 of times what happened with with Tyler 721 00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:26,700 in the beginning I noticed that 722 00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:28,460 he was 723 00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:31,980 strangely lucky right if you looked at 724 00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:35,760 everything he did it all worked all of 725 00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:37,260 it like it seemed like everything that 726 00:29:42,590 --> 00:29:40,559 he did was successful and so you've got 727 00:29:46,250 --> 00:29:42,600 to wonder what you know this is beyond 728 00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,260 probability and so I guess the the 729 00:29:49,730 --> 00:29:48,480 conclusion I came to about this was that 730 00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:49,740 I'm not the only one who would have 731 00:29:54,049 --> 00:29:52,080 noticed this so 732 00:29:56,330 --> 00:29:54,059 um people who are inordinately lucky 733 00:29:58,490 --> 00:29:56,340 probably have some kind of forecasting 734 00:30:00,590 --> 00:29:58,500 skill right or else they wouldn't do 735 00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:00,600 what they're doing so they're choosing 736 00:30:06,350 --> 00:30:04,200 those acts that allow them to be most 737 00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:06,360 effective and efficient 738 00:30:10,130 --> 00:30:08,640 prior to whatever circumstance they find 739 00:30:11,330 --> 00:30:10,140 themselves in these are the people that 740 00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:11,340 you need 741 00:30:19,370 --> 00:30:15,480 in these environments I'm working right 742 00:30:22,850 --> 00:30:19,380 now with a person whose job is to assist 743 00:30:24,350 --> 00:30:22,860 and support these people and identify 744 00:30:26,690 --> 00:30:24,360 them as well 745 00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:26,700 that's really interesting 746 00:30:30,169 --> 00:30:28,799 in one of your emails as we prepared for 747 00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:30,179 this interview you said something really 748 00:30:34,430 --> 00:30:31,740 interesting that I wanted to follow up 749 00:30:37,010 --> 00:30:34,440 on about moving forward the conversation 750 00:30:39,470 --> 00:30:37,020 on civil religion by bringing UFOs into 751 00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:39,480 the conversation can you say more about 752 00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:41,220 what you mean by that 753 00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:46,200 sure so we are either okay so whatever 754 00:30:52,850 --> 00:30:49,860 religion we ascribe to or even atheism 755 00:30:55,010 --> 00:30:52,860 or kind of agnosticism which is I just 756 00:30:58,730 --> 00:30:55,020 don't know kind of thing in the United 757 00:31:01,010 --> 00:30:58,740 States we at base have something called 758 00:31:03,710 --> 00:31:01,020 a civil religion and the Civil religion 759 00:31:07,610 --> 00:31:03,720 basically means this is that regardless 760 00:31:09,769 --> 00:31:07,620 of our affiliations when our president 761 00:31:13,310 --> 00:31:09,779 you know when we inaugurate our 762 00:31:16,669 --> 00:31:13,320 president he or she you know will swear 763 00:31:18,830 --> 00:31:16,679 in on a Bible right and that looks like 764 00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:18,840 it's not going to change so what do we 765 00:31:23,570 --> 00:31:22,080 make of these relics these objects that 766 00:31:26,029 --> 00:31:23,580 we use which are affiliated with 767 00:31:27,889 --> 00:31:26,039 religion but then we say that we're a 768 00:31:29,870 --> 00:31:27,899 secular society so this would be called 769 00:31:32,750 --> 00:31:29,880 civil religion 770 00:31:35,389 --> 00:31:32,760 um what I found was that in the launches 771 00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:35,399 and the launch is like a Cape Canaveral 772 00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:38,640 and places like that a lot it would like 773 00:31:43,070 --> 00:31:40,559 be ritualistic 774 00:31:45,649 --> 00:31:43,080 um and actually told me that he 775 00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:45,659 participated in a similar type of launch 776 00:31:49,850 --> 00:31:48,240 in Russia years ago and he said that 777 00:31:51,950 --> 00:31:49,860 they did the same things they had their 778 00:31:54,769 --> 00:31:51,960 own rituals associated with the launch 779 00:31:57,710 --> 00:31:54,779 well these rituals looked to me to be 780 00:32:00,110 --> 00:31:57,720 very um you know first century Roman 781 00:32:01,970 --> 00:32:00,120 like Roman Empire type which a lot of 782 00:32:04,669 --> 00:32:01,980 people would call a myth but it was 783 00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:04,679 their religion so you know they're using 784 00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:08,760 these patches uh these this iconography 785 00:32:15,169 --> 00:32:11,940 of first century Latin and you know 786 00:32:18,889 --> 00:32:15,179 they're they're you you know utilizing 787 00:32:21,470 --> 00:32:18,899 images of of gods and goddesses Roman 788 00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:21,480 gods and goddesses and they also do 789 00:32:25,789 --> 00:32:24,000 rituals they wear the same clothes these 790 00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:25,799 are special clothes that they wear they 791 00:32:30,409 --> 00:32:28,080 have a meal that's the same you know 792 00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:30,419 they they're involved in ritualistic 793 00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:33,600 activities at the launches and so that's 794 00:32:39,409 --> 00:32:35,700 part of what I would call civil religion 795 00:32:42,289 --> 00:32:39,419 it's in my field we tend to want to keep 796 00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:42,299 the space programs separate from 797 00:32:47,269 --> 00:32:44,640 from religion you know because you know 798 00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:47,279 it's almost as if we wanted to be too 799 00:32:51,889 --> 00:32:49,440 sacred for religion which is ironic but 800 00:32:55,730 --> 00:32:51,899 it seems like it and but there's a lot 801 00:32:57,950 --> 00:32:55,740 of religiosity within the the uh 802 00:33:00,649 --> 00:32:57,960 procedures of the Space Program 803 00:33:02,330 --> 00:33:00,659 particularly when we are launching 804 00:33:06,110 --> 00:33:02,340 things into space 805 00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:06,120 hmm it makes me think about like Elite 806 00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:08,520 Sports Teams like players and that sort 807 00:33:10,970 --> 00:33:09,600 of thing like they tend to have 808 00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:10,980 especially once they get into the 809 00:33:15,409 --> 00:33:13,380 playoff season like a lot of 810 00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:15,419 it you know rituals and things that they 811 00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:16,799 wear and certain things that they have 812 00:33:20,210 --> 00:33:18,480 to do or something that they did on the 813 00:33:21,649 --> 00:33:20,220 first day of the playoffs and they 814 00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:21,659 haven't lost a game yet so they have to 815 00:33:24,769 --> 00:33:23,279 keep do you know it seems like a lot of 816 00:33:26,090 --> 00:33:24,779 you see a lot of that same kind of 817 00:33:28,250 --> 00:33:26,100 thinking as like what you're talking 818 00:33:30,889 --> 00:33:28,260 about with the rocket launches 819 00:33:32,810 --> 00:33:30,899 yeah and you know what I think it does I 820 00:33:34,990 --> 00:33:32,820 think it gets them this is okay so this 821 00:33:38,090 --> 00:33:35,000 is me speaking as you know a professor 822 00:33:40,909 --> 00:33:38,100 there's a function and it seems that it 823 00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:40,919 gets them into a frame of mind 824 00:33:44,990 --> 00:33:42,720 I think it gets them into a creative 825 00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:45,000 frame of mind that takes them out of 826 00:33:48,649 --> 00:33:47,460 their individualistic frame of mind and 827 00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:48,659 puts them into almost like a hive 828 00:33:52,970 --> 00:33:50,760 mentality 829 00:33:54,169 --> 00:33:52,980 um that's really interesting and you 830 00:33:56,529 --> 00:33:54,179 probably need that when you need to be 831 00:33:59,029 --> 00:33:56,539 working as a unit that makes sense 832 00:34:02,210 --> 00:33:59,039 if you're going to be an excellent team 833 00:34:04,669 --> 00:34:02,220 you absolutely need to to have that kind 834 00:34:06,529 --> 00:34:04,679 of mentality not focused on yourself you 835 00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:06,539 also need to be able to forecast 836 00:34:11,149 --> 00:34:08,520 what's going to happen next 837 00:34:12,290 --> 00:34:11,159 yeah no that's a great Point that's 838 00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:12,300 really interesting 839 00:34:16,970 --> 00:34:14,760 moving on to another topic 840 00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:16,980 um in American Cosmic you talk about the 841 00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:18,720 rare opportunity that the modern UFO 842 00:34:22,430 --> 00:34:20,520 phenomenon presents to study in real 843 00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:22,440 time how myths beliefs and ultimately 844 00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:23,940 religions are born 845 00:34:27,710 --> 00:34:25,740 has having a front row seat to the pro 846 00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,720 to that process changed anything about 847 00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:29,520 how you approach your work or how you 848 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:32,940 view religion and religiosity as a whole 849 00:34:37,790 --> 00:34:34,320 it does 850 00:34:39,409 --> 00:34:37,800 so I believe Carl Jung was the first to 851 00:34:40,490 --> 00:34:39,419 say this by the way so I don't want to 852 00:34:42,349 --> 00:34:40,500 you know 853 00:34:45,490 --> 00:34:42,359 I want to give credit where credits do 854 00:34:49,010 --> 00:34:45,500 well when Carl Jung looked at 855 00:34:51,710 --> 00:34:49,020 UFOs and he wrote a book about it flying 856 00:34:53,089 --> 00:34:51,720 saucers modern myths seen in the sky and 857 00:34:57,349 --> 00:34:53,099 he also actually that wasn't his final 858 00:34:59,570 --> 00:34:57,359 word on on UFOs or flying saucers he he 859 00:35:01,490 --> 00:34:59,580 also wrote a lot about it afterwards and 860 00:35:02,990 --> 00:35:01,500 so he's got some so when I first started 861 00:35:05,950 --> 00:35:03,000 to do this I really wanted to know what 862 00:35:08,930 --> 00:35:05,960 he thought you know was he thinking that 863 00:35:11,930 --> 00:35:08,940 this new religion or this new type of 864 00:35:14,030 --> 00:35:11,940 religiosity was something that was 865 00:35:16,190 --> 00:35:14,040 subjective you know purely subjective 866 00:35:18,650 --> 00:35:16,200 there was no kind of objective reality 867 00:35:21,290 --> 00:35:18,660 to it and I think at some yeah I do 868 00:35:23,569 --> 00:35:21,300 think that in flying saucers myth in the 869 00:35:26,030 --> 00:35:23,579 sky I think that is what he's saying but 870 00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:26,040 afterwards he has a letter that he 871 00:35:30,109 --> 00:35:28,800 writes where he basically says it's 872 00:35:33,050 --> 00:35:30,119 almost as if he had the same thing 873 00:35:35,329 --> 00:35:33,060 happen to him that happened to me we had 874 00:35:37,450 --> 00:35:35,339 her mind made up and then we happened to 875 00:35:40,010 --> 00:35:37,460 meet people in the Air Force 876 00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:40,020 you got me to meet people in the space 877 00:35:44,270 --> 00:35:42,420 program and then wow all of a sudden 878 00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:44,280 wait a minute something else is 879 00:35:50,030 --> 00:35:47,760 happening here and that changed his view 880 00:35:52,370 --> 00:35:50,040 I don't I think that he was completely 881 00:35:54,170 --> 00:35:52,380 confused by it of course um so we didn't 882 00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,180 have a conclusion I think he had many 883 00:35:58,190 --> 00:35:56,400 different conclusions and so people get 884 00:35:59,630 --> 00:35:58,200 confused when they read they read that 885 00:36:01,490 --> 00:35:59,640 book and they think that was the last 886 00:36:02,690 --> 00:36:01,500 word Carl Jung says on it well it wasn't 887 00:36:04,490 --> 00:36:02,700 the last word 888 00:36:06,170 --> 00:36:04,500 and he was working on it you know when 889 00:36:07,310 --> 00:36:06,180 he died he was this is the topic he was 890 00:36:09,170 --> 00:36:07,320 working on 891 00:36:11,930 --> 00:36:09,180 so for me 892 00:36:14,410 --> 00:36:11,940 yeah I think that first I thought that 893 00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:14,420 it was a pretty it it was very 894 00:36:21,490 --> 00:36:18,000 uncontroversial for me to say that 895 00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:21,500 digital Technologies are going to 896 00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:25,740 you know decentralize religion in many 897 00:36:30,829 --> 00:36:28,320 many ways and it's going to create a new 898 00:36:34,490 --> 00:36:30,839 form of religion that's a global cosmism 899 00:36:35,930 --> 00:36:34,500 which is um a cause so the cosmism is a 900 00:36:38,510 --> 00:36:35,940 movement that a lot of people associate 901 00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:38,520 with Eastern Europe and Russia uh where 902 00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:40,560 you know it's this idea that humans are 903 00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:43,680 evolving into Cosmic beings and that 904 00:36:49,069 --> 00:36:46,079 we're gonna we're gonna get help with 905 00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:49,079 this progression through these etheric 906 00:36:52,490 --> 00:36:50,880 beings in space you know off-planet 907 00:36:54,349 --> 00:36:52,500 entities and things like that 908 00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,359 um I do think that this is a huge 909 00:36:57,050 --> 00:36:55,920 movement that's happening right now and 910 00:36:59,870 --> 00:36:57,060 it's Global and it's happening 911 00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,880 everywhere and it's linked to the 912 00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:01,920 instantaneous ability to share 913 00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:04,320 information you know that we have today 914 00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:08,160 okay so with American Cosmic I had to 915 00:37:15,890 --> 00:37:12,480 shift the perspective of the normal ways 916 00:37:17,630 --> 00:37:15,900 of looking at at you know belief systems 917 00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:17,640 so the normal ways in my field tend to 918 00:37:21,890 --> 00:37:20,400 be that we don't talk about the reality 919 00:37:23,630 --> 00:37:21,900 of these things you know we just kind of 920 00:37:26,690 --> 00:37:23,640 talk about social effects and things 921 00:37:30,170 --> 00:37:26,700 like that but I felt as if I was also 922 00:37:32,690 --> 00:37:30,180 part of this this living myth it's not 923 00:37:35,210 --> 00:37:32,700 even a myth in the sense that it's this 924 00:37:37,849 --> 00:37:35,220 not real thing I felt like I was living 925 00:37:40,010 --> 00:37:37,859 it and I felt like I was a part of the 926 00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:40,020 myth I felt like I was meeting people 927 00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:42,000 who were also 928 00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:43,560 you know 929 00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:46,800 people who were also living it and in 930 00:37:51,050 --> 00:37:48,780 many ways I think we're all living it 931 00:37:53,390 --> 00:37:51,060 right and so how then could I write a 932 00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:53,400 book where you know from the old 933 00:37:58,370 --> 00:37:56,400 perspective I would just say yes people 934 00:38:01,010 --> 00:37:58,380 believe this you know I keep myself out 935 00:38:03,109 --> 00:38:01,020 of it I had to put myself into it so 936 00:38:04,310 --> 00:38:03,119 putting myself into it then meant that I 937 00:38:09,650 --> 00:38:04,320 had to 938 00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:09,660 than a normal academic book and I really 939 00:38:15,170 --> 00:38:12,480 won't go back to writing in that old way 940 00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:15,180 again I don't think it's helpful 941 00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:17,820 now that makes a lot of sense I it's 942 00:38:21,650 --> 00:38:19,920 something I love about the book is it 943 00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:21,660 basically opens with you standing in the 944 00:38:26,329 --> 00:38:24,300 desert in New Mexico in an alleged UFO 945 00:38:28,430 --> 00:38:26,339 crash site with Tyler and James slash 946 00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:28,440 Gary looking for materials from this 947 00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:29,940 crash and like you're just in the middle 948 00:38:34,250 --> 00:38:31,680 of this myth all of a sudden but you're 949 00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:34,260 also like very highly skeptical about 950 00:38:39,170 --> 00:38:37,440 the whole thing and but by the end of 951 00:38:42,109 --> 00:38:39,180 the book you've come to a place where 952 00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:42,119 you're more agnostic about UFOs so can 953 00:38:45,950 --> 00:38:44,040 you talk about like what was that what 954 00:38:47,329 --> 00:38:45,960 was that process like I mean I know you 955 00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:47,339 wrote this book over a series of years 956 00:38:51,890 --> 00:38:49,200 so what was that process like for you 957 00:38:53,329 --> 00:38:51,900 personally and what was the evidence or 958 00:38:56,030 --> 00:38:53,339 information that most informed your 959 00:38:57,890 --> 00:38:56,040 shift kind of away from a UFO atheism to 960 00:39:01,069 --> 00:38:57,900 a UFO agnosticism 961 00:39:04,609 --> 00:39:01,079 yes so throughout American Cosmic I'm an 962 00:39:06,589 --> 00:39:04,619 atheist with respect to UFOs and you 963 00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:06,599 know but I'm really Within These 964 00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:08,400 communities of scientists who are 965 00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:11,280 studying and they're Believers and every 966 00:39:17,750 --> 00:39:15,060 time I push against that belief and say 967 00:39:20,630 --> 00:39:17,760 are you sure it's not Russian or Chinese 968 00:39:23,390 --> 00:39:20,640 or something like that there you could 969 00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:23,400 just see the disdain on their faces like 970 00:39:28,910 --> 00:39:26,640 like I'm you know dying is stop being an 971 00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:28,920 idiot kind of thing you know like this 972 00:39:32,810 --> 00:39:30,960 is the science this is these are the 973 00:39:35,210 --> 00:39:32,820 products we've created from this kind of 974 00:39:38,810 --> 00:39:35,220 thing right so 975 00:39:40,670 --> 00:39:38,820 it's not like I had an either or it's 976 00:39:43,849 --> 00:39:40,680 just that I thought that the story was a 977 00:39:46,250 --> 00:39:43,859 lot more complicated and and I still do 978 00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:46,260 think that and this is how I think about 979 00:39:50,510 --> 00:39:48,480 it and a lot of people you know will say 980 00:39:53,089 --> 00:39:50,520 oh please you know don't talk about 981 00:39:55,849 --> 00:39:53,099 these things they're woo but you know 982 00:39:57,650 --> 00:39:55,859 they're actually not woo so when we talk 983 00:39:59,930 --> 00:39:57,660 about other dimensions we have to 984 00:40:02,030 --> 00:39:59,940 recognize that there are you know time 985 00:40:04,370 --> 00:40:02,040 is in a dimension that's not 986 00:40:08,930 --> 00:40:04,380 three-dimensional but we experience it 987 00:40:10,490 --> 00:40:08,940 so if we so the people that were first 988 00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:10,500 at least in the western tradition 989 00:40:14,750 --> 00:40:12,240 because indigenous cultures have 990 00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:14,760 identified stuff that westerners just 991 00:40:19,310 --> 00:40:17,520 figured out and then of course say they 992 00:40:21,530 --> 00:40:19,320 discovered it okay so it happens a lot 993 00:40:23,569 --> 00:40:21,540 it's a trait of the West 994 00:40:26,569 --> 00:40:23,579 you know some of the westerners who 995 00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:26,579 bumped up into other dimensional things 996 00:40:30,170 --> 00:40:28,079 you know we're talking about like 997 00:40:32,470 --> 00:40:30,180 platonic solids and you know 998 00:40:34,910 --> 00:40:32,480 mathematical things that appear to be 999 00:40:36,290 --> 00:40:34,920 what people today would call hyper 1000 00:40:38,030 --> 00:40:36,300 objects 1001 00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:38,040 um those were people who practice 1002 00:40:45,050 --> 00:40:40,800 protocols so those were the philosophers 1003 00:40:46,190 --> 00:40:45,060 like Pythagoras and Plato and Socrates 1004 00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:46,200 you know they had their own 1005 00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:47,760 philosophical schools these were 1006 00:40:51,770 --> 00:40:50,040 monastic communities like I would I 1007 00:40:53,930 --> 00:40:51,780 identify these as monastic communities 1008 00:40:56,569 --> 00:40:53,940 they have special diets they practice 1009 00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:56,579 physical protocols they engage in 1010 00:41:03,109 --> 00:41:00,000 mathematics as a symbolic language to 1011 00:41:04,849 --> 00:41:03,119 try to figure out the basis for their 1012 00:41:06,170 --> 00:41:04,859 reality and so they were some of the 1013 00:41:07,970 --> 00:41:06,180 first in the western tradition to 1014 00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:07,980 identify 1015 00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:09,839 other dimensions right these these 1016 00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:11,760 objects in other dimensions and I think 1017 00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:14,400 that now with the proliferation of 1018 00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:18,540 computer languages and you know the 1019 00:41:23,450 --> 00:41:21,359 ability to go into space and to see 1020 00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:23,460 massive objects and even see space you 1021 00:41:26,690 --> 00:41:24,960 know there's this thing called the 1022 00:41:28,130 --> 00:41:26,700 overview effect I don't know if you know 1023 00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:28,140 what that is but it happens to 1024 00:41:33,770 --> 00:41:30,000 astronauts or just people who go into 1025 00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:33,780 space and recognize they see Earth from 1026 00:41:39,410 --> 00:41:36,720 from space if something happens to them 1027 00:41:41,390 --> 00:41:39,420 their Consciousness changes well a lot 1028 00:41:45,650 --> 00:41:41,400 of times what happens to them and this 1029 00:41:47,750 --> 00:41:45,660 actually was revealed by the uh William 1030 00:41:49,849 --> 00:41:47,760 Shatner Captain Kirk going into space 1031 00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:49,859 right so you know he we have all these 1032 00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:51,599 assumptions of how cool it would be and 1033 00:41:55,609 --> 00:41:53,220 how wonderful it would be but when he 1034 00:41:56,750 --> 00:41:55,619 came back he was destroyed you know he 1035 00:41:58,550 --> 00:41:56,760 cried 1036 00:42:01,250 --> 00:41:58,560 um it was horrible and he's not the only 1037 00:42:02,810 --> 00:42:01,260 one so I've talked to a lot of people 1038 00:42:04,730 --> 00:42:02,820 who have been in space and then people 1039 00:42:07,310 --> 00:42:04,740 who are psychologists who support people 1040 00:42:09,950 --> 00:42:07,320 who go into space there are apparently 1041 00:42:11,870 --> 00:42:09,960 when you go into space there are and say 1042 00:42:14,510 --> 00:42:11,880 you're there with some other colleagues 1043 00:42:17,210 --> 00:42:14,520 you know your your crew there are other 1044 00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:17,220 rules that get created in space that are 1045 00:42:23,210 --> 00:42:19,200 different than the rules that we live by 1046 00:42:25,130 --> 00:42:23,220 on Earth and this is a recognized thing 1047 00:42:28,569 --> 00:42:25,140 um so 1048 00:42:31,010 --> 00:42:28,579 so I guess the answer to your question 1049 00:42:33,050 --> 00:42:31,020 is that 1050 00:42:36,410 --> 00:42:33,060 you know I think that we're at a point 1051 00:42:40,430 --> 00:42:36,420 where we're we're Shifting the ways in 1052 00:42:42,770 --> 00:42:40,440 which we are looking at 1053 00:42:43,970 --> 00:42:42,780 belief in in something that we used to 1054 00:42:46,910 --> 00:42:43,980 think was not real 1055 00:42:49,370 --> 00:42:46,920 but now appears to be real but not real 1056 00:42:52,130 --> 00:42:49,380 in the sense that in fact our questions 1057 00:42:53,630 --> 00:42:52,140 have to change like even the structure 1058 00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:53,640 of the question is it real or is it not 1059 00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:55,680 real that actually has to change because 1060 00:43:01,130 --> 00:42:58,319 once you get into questions about even 1061 00:43:03,470 --> 00:43:01,140 matter you know matter doesn't look like 1062 00:43:05,809 --> 00:43:03,480 it's real right if we get into the sub 1063 00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:05,819 if we get into the quantum 1064 00:43:11,329 --> 00:43:08,160 if we get into Quantum matter you see 1065 00:43:14,089 --> 00:43:11,339 that it doesn't function like what we 1066 00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:14,099 would assume some kind of like you know 1067 00:43:19,490 --> 00:43:16,800 figure of reality would be like you know 1068 00:43:21,890 --> 00:43:19,500 the the smallest part of reality it 1069 00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:21,900 looks like it vibrates and it's you know 1070 00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:23,460 we say it's here but it's not there it's 1071 00:43:28,490 --> 00:43:25,680 over there every time we try to identify 1072 00:43:30,530 --> 00:43:28,500 it it moves away we actually are part of 1073 00:43:32,990 --> 00:43:30,540 that equation so I think that the 1074 00:43:34,250 --> 00:43:33,000 research has shifted our questions and 1075 00:43:36,349 --> 00:43:34,260 so the questions that I asked in 1076 00:43:38,510 --> 00:43:36,359 American Cosmic are I can't even ask 1077 00:43:40,970 --> 00:43:38,520 those kinds of questions anymore 1078 00:43:43,730 --> 00:43:40,980 yeah no that makes sense 1079 00:43:45,650 --> 00:43:43,740 Switching gears again American Cosmic 1080 00:43:48,170 --> 00:43:45,660 isn't just about UFOs and religion but 1081 00:43:50,089 --> 00:43:48,180 also about technology and what's become 1082 00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:50,099 clear to me through your work is it is 1083 00:43:53,450 --> 00:43:51,540 that if we're going to understand the 1084 00:43:55,490 --> 00:43:53,460 UFO phenomenon we also need to 1085 00:43:56,990 --> 00:43:55,500 understand technology and that in 1086 00:43:58,430 --> 00:43:57,000 general most people and I would include 1087 00:43:59,690 --> 00:43:58,440 myself in this until very recently and 1088 00:44:01,910 --> 00:43:59,700 probably still now I'm still grappling 1089 00:44:04,849 --> 00:44:01,920 with it tend to have a really limited 1090 00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:04,859 understanding of what technology is so I 1091 00:44:09,410 --> 00:44:06,540 wanted to take a minute to talk about 1092 00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:09,420 that last spring I read American Cosmic 1093 00:44:13,130 --> 00:44:11,280 for the first time and I loved it but it 1094 00:44:14,630 --> 00:44:13,140 wasn't until I saw your interview on 1095 00:44:16,490 --> 00:44:14,640 theories of everything with Kurt J 1096 00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:16,500 mungle that I felt like your work really 1097 00:44:20,450 --> 00:44:18,000 opened up to me and I started to 1098 00:44:21,770 --> 00:44:20,460 understand it on a deeper level one of 1099 00:44:23,630 --> 00:44:21,780 the things that you talked about in that 1100 00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:23,640 interview was an essay by philosopher 1101 00:44:28,430 --> 00:44:25,680 Martin Heidegger called a question 1102 00:44:30,290 --> 00:44:28,440 concerning technology Heidegger is 1103 00:44:31,790 --> 00:44:30,300 notoriously tough to read but the more I 1104 00:44:33,410 --> 00:44:31,800 understand about what he's saying the 1105 00:44:34,849 --> 00:44:33,420 more applicable it seems to be to 1106 00:44:37,609 --> 00:44:34,859 understanding not just the UFO 1107 00:44:39,170 --> 00:44:37,619 phenomenon but our modern world so if 1108 00:44:41,569 --> 00:44:39,180 you would indulge me what I'd like to do 1109 00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:41,579 is take a few minutes and kind of get 1110 00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:43,260 your thoughts in response to the core 1111 00:44:46,849 --> 00:44:45,119 claims that Heidegger is making in that 1112 00:44:48,410 --> 00:44:46,859 essay and also please let me know if I'm 1113 00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:48,420 misrepresenting these in any way because 1114 00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:50,880 I will con I will confess that Heidegger 1115 00:44:54,589 --> 00:44:53,040 is tough if there is an easier way to 1116 00:44:57,290 --> 00:44:54,599 say something he is committed to not 1117 00:44:59,329 --> 00:44:57,300 finding it has been my experience that 1118 00:45:03,230 --> 00:44:59,339 is very true 1119 00:45:05,390 --> 00:45:03,240 okay so the first claim in this essay is 1120 00:45:07,010 --> 00:45:05,400 that technology technology is not an 1121 00:45:09,290 --> 00:45:07,020 instrument it's a way of seeing the 1122 00:45:10,210 --> 00:45:09,300 world so what do you think that he means 1123 00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:10,220 by that 1124 00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:13,200 okay all right so in order to understand 1125 00:45:20,510 --> 00:45:15,839 and by the way kudos to you for taking 1126 00:45:22,190 --> 00:45:20,520 on Heidegger okay so I tried yeah so 1127 00:45:24,650 --> 00:45:22,200 what's really interesting about 1128 00:45:27,829 --> 00:45:24,660 Heidegger and not just Heidegger but the 1129 00:45:30,050 --> 00:45:27,839 people who were trying at that time in 1130 00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:30,060 that time period you know early 20th 1131 00:45:36,349 --> 00:45:33,599 century where they're getting a lot of 1132 00:45:39,890 --> 00:45:36,359 very intelligent people are getting the 1133 00:45:42,530 --> 00:45:39,900 whiff that the world is just about to 1134 00:45:45,050 --> 00:45:42,540 completely change and it's just about to 1135 00:45:48,230 --> 00:45:45,060 completely change because of Technology 1136 00:45:51,230 --> 00:45:48,240 okay so he's not the only one there's 1137 00:45:54,349 --> 00:45:51,240 also tell your de Chardon who is a 1138 00:45:58,190 --> 00:45:54,359 French Jesuit Anthropologist 1139 00:46:00,050 --> 00:45:58,200 um paleontologist actually and he's also 1140 00:46:03,470 --> 00:46:00,060 and by the way he was in World War one 1141 00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:03,480 and so you know he also is a person who 1142 00:46:09,790 --> 00:46:06,960 recognizes that technology is he links 1143 00:46:13,309 --> 00:46:09,800 it with our Evolution uh human evolution 1144 00:46:15,470 --> 00:46:13,319 hydrogen does too it seems so in the 1145 00:46:18,109 --> 00:46:15,480 question concerning technology 1146 00:46:20,569 --> 00:46:18,119 I also want to suggest there's a small 1147 00:46:23,450 --> 00:46:20,579 book called what is thinking by 1148 00:46:26,510 --> 00:46:23,460 Heidegger that might actually help also 1149 00:46:28,910 --> 00:46:26,520 for any of your listeners who want to 1150 00:46:31,010 --> 00:46:28,920 take this one on okay so that would be 1151 00:46:33,950 --> 00:46:31,020 probably the best one to start with 1152 00:46:38,210 --> 00:46:33,960 so Heidegger is 1153 00:46:40,250 --> 00:46:38,220 is looking at the way in which and this 1154 00:46:42,530 --> 00:46:40,260 is how I put it 1155 00:46:44,450 --> 00:46:42,540 the ways and actually I write about 1156 00:46:47,450 --> 00:46:44,460 Heidegger 2 with respect to Jacques 1157 00:46:50,089 --> 00:46:47,460 valet so it could be because I and this 1158 00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:50,099 is in this is the original preface to 1159 00:46:55,910 --> 00:46:52,800 American Cosmic which is not in the book 1160 00:46:58,190 --> 00:46:55,920 so the original preface actually is on 1161 00:46:59,630 --> 00:46:58,200 my Academia page it's free it's free you 1162 00:47:01,970 --> 00:46:59,640 can download it 1163 00:47:03,470 --> 00:47:01,980 um and it's here where I basically try 1164 00:47:05,630 --> 00:47:03,480 to answer the questions you just asked 1165 00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:05,640 which is what is Heidegger talking about 1166 00:47:09,890 --> 00:47:07,680 when he says that it's a way of looking 1167 00:47:12,589 --> 00:47:09,900 at the world well you have to go back 1168 00:47:14,690 --> 00:47:12,599 and understand that Heidegger is looking 1169 00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:14,700 at the human history with respect to 1170 00:47:20,510 --> 00:47:17,040 what he calls these epics okay or these 1171 00:47:22,609 --> 00:47:20,520 epochs okay of eras of human history 1172 00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:22,619 where he's looking at like the medieval 1173 00:47:30,890 --> 00:47:26,280 time period where we have the cathedral 1174 00:47:32,750 --> 00:47:30,900 okay and the cathedral houses God so God 1175 00:47:36,650 --> 00:47:32,760 is you know the world is the Western 1176 00:47:39,650 --> 00:47:36,660 world is Catholic and all things all all 1177 00:47:43,849 --> 00:47:39,660 the ways in which we think are all 1178 00:47:45,589 --> 00:47:43,859 tinged by this world view okay so he's 1179 00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:45,599 basically saying that 1180 00:47:49,490 --> 00:47:47,520 and he also goes back to the greek 1181 00:47:53,450 --> 00:47:49,500 temple and he says during that time 1182 00:47:55,970 --> 00:47:53,460 period all things were with respect to 1183 00:47:58,609 --> 00:47:55,980 the greek temple like everybody had 1184 00:48:01,010 --> 00:47:58,619 recourse to what we now call a myth but 1185 00:48:03,650 --> 00:48:01,020 for them was a religion was this this 1186 00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:03,660 world view so a lot of times we have 1187 00:48:09,530 --> 00:48:06,960 World Views but we can't see them right 1188 00:48:11,870 --> 00:48:09,540 we can't see the World Views with which 1189 00:48:14,450 --> 00:48:11,880 we are looking from because they're all 1190 00:48:16,130 --> 00:48:14,460 assumptions so we're we're completely 1191 00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:16,140 within these assumptions so what 1192 00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:18,480 Heidegger is basically saying is that 1193 00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:21,359 the new epic the new 1194 00:48:26,930 --> 00:48:24,780 you know Epoch right the new era 1195 00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:26,940 everything is going to come back to you 1196 00:48:32,450 --> 00:48:29,220 looking through the world through the 1197 00:48:35,150 --> 00:48:32,460 lens of Technology absolutely true and 1198 00:48:36,890 --> 00:48:35,160 now he said this in the 1920s 30s and 1199 00:48:38,329 --> 00:48:36,900 40s okay 1200 00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:38,339 so 1201 00:48:48,010 --> 00:48:44,160 for 21 years I literally have seen 1202 00:48:50,510 --> 00:48:48,020 the shift from kids who 1203 00:48:52,849 --> 00:48:50,520 experience the shift from no cell phone 1204 00:48:55,550 --> 00:48:52,859 to constant cell phone you know we live 1205 00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:55,560 with we everybody does right but there 1206 00:49:00,170 --> 00:48:58,079 was a time period when students I Would 1207 00:49:02,030 --> 00:49:00,180 Walk The Halls of my University and 1208 00:49:04,849 --> 00:49:02,040 students would not have they didn't have 1209 00:49:07,010 --> 00:49:04,859 cell phones no one did right we had 1210 00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:07,020 these little tiny things right that were 1211 00:49:10,849 --> 00:49:09,119 flip phones no one used those they just 1212 00:49:12,770 --> 00:49:10,859 kind of like you know they'd use them 1213 00:49:16,490 --> 00:49:12,780 every once in a while like you know like 1214 00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:16,500 a all right so now we're completely 1215 00:49:22,970 --> 00:49:19,680 networked we're in the network okay and 1216 00:49:25,970 --> 00:49:22,980 no one's out of it we're all in it so 1217 00:49:27,530 --> 00:49:25,980 this is what Heidegger's identifying and 1218 00:49:29,150 --> 00:49:27,540 he knows it's happening and what he's 1219 00:49:31,970 --> 00:49:29,160 gonna what he's trying to do is he's 1220 00:49:33,710 --> 00:49:31,980 trying to warn us about it basically 1221 00:49:36,050 --> 00:49:33,720 um we also have to take Heidegger we 1222 00:49:37,250 --> 00:49:36,060 also put Heidegger in perspective in 1223 00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:37,260 terms of 1224 00:49:40,910 --> 00:49:39,119 what happened to him 1225 00:49:43,970 --> 00:49:40,920 so he had 1226 00:49:48,290 --> 00:49:43,980 what I would call a Satori experience 1227 00:49:50,450 --> 00:49:48,300 so a Satori is a Japanese Zen word for 1228 00:49:52,730 --> 00:49:50,460 an Enlightenment he had an Enlightenment 1229 00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:52,740 experience now you know a lot of times 1230 00:49:57,230 --> 00:49:55,440 people assume in the west that if you 1231 00:49:59,329 --> 00:49:57,240 have an Enlightenment experience that it 1232 00:50:01,130 --> 00:49:59,339 then lasts right and then you're 1233 00:50:02,690 --> 00:50:01,140 enlightened that's not how it works so 1234 00:50:04,490 --> 00:50:02,700 you have these experiences they're Peak 1235 00:50:05,630 --> 00:50:04,500 experiences of feeling one with 1236 00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:05,640 everything or you know they're 1237 00:50:09,710 --> 00:50:07,440 Enlightenment basically but it goes away 1238 00:50:13,609 --> 00:50:09,720 right and then you try to get it back 1239 00:50:16,670 --> 00:50:13,619 right okay so Heidegger had been a 1240 00:50:18,829 --> 00:50:16,680 normal kind of analytic philosopher he 1241 00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:18,839 had done a lot of analytic philosophy he 1242 00:50:22,970 --> 00:50:20,640 was friends with people like vickenstein 1243 00:50:25,609 --> 00:50:22,980 you know these are all some of the major 1244 00:50:27,230 --> 00:50:25,619 figures in Western philosophy and then 1245 00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:27,240 what happened was he started to talk to 1246 00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:29,940 philosophers from Japan and philosophers 1247 00:50:36,349 --> 00:50:31,920 from Japan didn't 1248 00:50:38,990 --> 00:50:36,359 didn't separate Philosophy from religion 1249 00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:39,000 because it was because they were 1250 00:50:43,930 --> 00:50:42,240 practicing Zen Buddhism okay and you 1251 00:50:46,970 --> 00:50:43,940 know so so 1252 00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:46,980 their idea 1253 00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:49,440 it wasn't it didn't and they also don't 1254 00:50:54,049 --> 00:50:50,880 and this is why I'm very interested in 1255 00:50:56,510 --> 00:50:54,059 in Japan and Japanese UFOs and ideas of 1256 00:51:00,349 --> 00:50:56,520 UFOs They Don't Really separate 1257 00:51:01,849 --> 00:51:00,359 technology from nature my friend Marie I 1258 00:51:03,290 --> 00:51:01,859 had her in my class 1259 00:51:05,150 --> 00:51:03,300 um I'll link her stuff up in the episode 1260 00:51:06,109 --> 00:51:05,160 description I have yeah I think I forgot 1261 00:51:08,690 --> 00:51:06,119 her last name but I know who you're 1262 00:51:12,470 --> 00:51:08,700 talking about yeah 1263 00:51:14,089 --> 00:51:12,480 so she so her work is really excellent 1264 00:51:17,150 --> 00:51:14,099 in this and that she kind of goes back 1265 00:51:18,829 --> 00:51:17,160 and finds where in Japanese history they 1266 00:51:21,650 --> 00:51:18,839 start to to adopt this Western 1267 00:51:24,589 --> 00:51:21,660 separation but it's still not the case 1268 00:51:26,990 --> 00:51:24,599 there so um so anyway so Heidegger has 1269 00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:27,000 this this 1270 00:51:35,089 --> 00:51:30,960 um collaboration with the Kyoto School 1271 00:51:38,450 --> 00:51:35,099 philosophers and he Pro he begins to 1272 00:51:39,849 --> 00:51:38,460 practice and he he gives into a 1273 00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:39,859 spontaneous 1274 00:51:45,109 --> 00:51:43,200 Enlightenment and recognizes that it has 1275 00:51:47,390 --> 00:51:45,119 to do with thinking 1276 00:51:50,030 --> 00:51:47,400 and so he calls it meditative thinking 1277 00:51:52,430 --> 00:51:50,040 and he identifies it as separate from 1278 00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:52,440 the type of rational thinking that we 1279 00:51:57,230 --> 00:51:54,240 are normally engaged in 1280 00:52:00,290 --> 00:51:57,240 and then once he begins to 1281 00:52:04,010 --> 00:52:00,300 have these experiences Kelly 1282 00:52:06,710 --> 00:52:04,020 his his classes take a standing room 1283 00:52:09,170 --> 00:52:06,720 only like people attend his classes 1284 00:52:11,809 --> 00:52:09,180 because it's exciting 1285 00:52:13,849 --> 00:52:11,819 and this is just before World War II and 1286 00:52:15,650 --> 00:52:13,859 so people are just like there you know 1287 00:52:18,770 --> 00:52:15,660 something's happening to this 1288 00:52:21,650 --> 00:52:18,780 philosopher and it's actually something 1289 00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:21,660 living it's alive so they attend his 1290 00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:24,720 philosophy and you know 1291 00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:28,079 um he he has a lot of people who are 1292 00:52:31,490 --> 00:52:30,000 students of his who then go on to become 1293 00:52:33,650 --> 00:52:31,500 very very important philosophers like 1294 00:52:35,870 --> 00:52:33,660 Honda rent and what they they're all 1295 00:52:38,750 --> 00:52:35,880 trying to do is trying to answer this 1296 00:52:40,490 --> 00:52:38,760 question you know what the what is 1297 00:52:43,670 --> 00:52:40,500 coming you know it's going to be after 1298 00:52:46,309 --> 00:52:43,680 World War II and it's going to determine 1299 00:52:50,569 --> 00:52:46,319 a lot of things he predicts so 1300 00:52:54,170 --> 00:52:50,579 accurately that in one instant we'll be 1301 00:52:57,829 --> 00:52:54,180 able to know the score of the World Cup 1302 00:53:01,490 --> 00:52:57,839 while also I like watching a war 1303 00:53:03,290 --> 00:53:01,500 and he says and do you think this will 1304 00:53:05,390 --> 00:53:03,300 be progress 1305 00:53:07,970 --> 00:53:05,400 he says so it's progress he goes then 1306 00:53:10,609 --> 00:53:07,980 then what so what he's trying to do is 1307 00:53:13,069 --> 00:53:10,619 he's trying to make us he's trying to 1308 00:53:14,809 --> 00:53:13,079 hook us into 1309 00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:14,819 already what's already there 1310 00:53:20,210 --> 00:53:17,280 pre-internet which is a an organic 1311 00:53:22,130 --> 00:53:20,220 Network right uh that allows for this 1312 00:53:24,109 --> 00:53:22,140 kind of Enlightenment experience he's 1313 00:53:26,510 --> 00:53:24,119 trying to hook as many people into that 1314 00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:26,520 as possible before 1315 00:53:33,230 --> 00:53:29,520 the internet comes because when the 1316 00:53:35,630 --> 00:53:33,240 internet comes we'll be so distracted by 1317 00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:35,640 watching the war in Ukraine and watching 1318 00:53:42,410 --> 00:53:39,720 the World Cup that we won't even care 1319 00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:42,420 that's what he's trying to to show us 1320 00:53:47,930 --> 00:53:45,359 and so that's why I think that 1321 00:53:50,510 --> 00:53:47,940 his work is really interesting 1322 00:53:53,569 --> 00:53:50,520 and yeah I mean and troubling like it's 1323 00:53:55,549 --> 00:53:53,579 it's troubling that you know the second 1324 00:53:57,890 --> 00:53:55,559 major claim that he makes is that 1325 00:54:00,049 --> 00:53:57,900 technology is not a human activity but 1326 00:54:01,849 --> 00:54:00,059 that it develops Beyond human control 1327 00:54:03,530 --> 00:54:01,859 and 1328 00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:03,540 you know I find that really interesting 1329 00:54:06,589 --> 00:54:05,280 especially at the time where he was in I 1330 00:54:08,569 --> 00:54:06,599 think it would be really hard to 1331 00:54:10,130 --> 00:54:08,579 conceive of Technology as not being the 1332 00:54:13,010 --> 00:54:10,140 result of human activity when we're used 1333 00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:13,020 to thinking of it as an instrument yeah 1334 00:54:16,430 --> 00:54:14,880 when you look at how it interacts with 1335 00:54:18,650 --> 00:54:16,440 our lives today you can start to begin 1336 00:54:21,049 --> 00:54:18,660 to see how technology how technology can 1337 00:54:23,210 --> 00:54:21,059 develop Beyond human control but what do 1338 00:54:25,010 --> 00:54:23,220 you what do you think he was pointing to 1339 00:54:27,230 --> 00:54:25,020 with that and how how can we kind of 1340 00:54:30,829 --> 00:54:27,240 help use that to help understand our 1341 00:54:33,470 --> 00:54:30,839 world today yeah so I I don't know if 1342 00:54:36,349 --> 00:54:33,480 you notice but I end American Cosmic 1343 00:54:39,109 --> 00:54:36,359 with a quote from him and he did not 1344 00:54:40,010 --> 00:54:39,119 want that quote uh out there while he 1345 00:54:42,770 --> 00:54:40,020 was alive 1346 00:54:45,950 --> 00:54:42,780 he basically made a condition 1347 00:54:49,849 --> 00:54:45,960 of the the periodical that that 1348 00:54:50,750 --> 00:54:49,859 published it that he must die first so I 1349 00:54:53,870 --> 00:54:50,760 think that's actually kind of 1350 00:54:56,329 --> 00:54:53,880 interesting so okay and yeah it's 1351 00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:56,339 basically his his quote is only a God 1352 00:55:01,190 --> 00:54:58,559 can save us now and of course he's not 1353 00:55:03,430 --> 00:55:01,200 talking about kind of the old ideas of 1354 00:55:05,510 --> 00:55:03,440 God right so he's talking about 1355 00:55:08,329 --> 00:55:05,520 whatever's going to help us out of this 1356 00:55:10,370 --> 00:55:08,339 crisis is it's going to be Beyond us 1357 00:55:14,510 --> 00:55:10,380 it's going to be something Divine okay 1358 00:55:17,750 --> 00:55:14,520 so I I didn't I also had a very I guess 1359 00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:17,760 you could call it if one understands 1360 00:55:21,650 --> 00:55:19,920 that he's projecting he's forecasting 1361 00:55:24,109 --> 00:55:21,660 you know and he's identifying something 1362 00:55:26,329 --> 00:55:24,119 that could be true and now that I've 1363 00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:26,339 talked to a lot more people engaged in 1364 00:55:30,829 --> 00:55:28,559 the creation of Technology especially AI 1365 00:55:34,970 --> 00:55:30,839 at the moment people who've been doing 1366 00:55:37,490 --> 00:55:34,980 this now for you know since the 90s so 1367 00:55:40,670 --> 00:55:37,500 um so right now they're incredibly 1368 00:55:44,510 --> 00:55:40,680 ecstatic with the situation that every 1369 00:55:47,870 --> 00:55:44,520 single day there's some new explosion of 1370 00:55:50,510 --> 00:55:47,880 AI that completely changes the game for 1371 00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:50,520 humans okay so Heidegger seems to have 1372 00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:53,760 seen this happen right and so we have to 1373 00:55:58,370 --> 00:55:55,920 then go back and look at those people 1374 00:56:00,470 --> 00:55:58,380 who predicted well the things that are 1375 00:56:02,270 --> 00:56:00,480 happening to us today and figure out 1376 00:56:04,730 --> 00:56:02,280 what the heck else did they say right 1377 00:56:07,069 --> 00:56:04,740 what else do we need to know right and 1378 00:56:09,470 --> 00:56:07,079 so that's what I was trying to do I was 1379 00:56:11,750 --> 00:56:09,480 trying to basically say okay we already 1380 00:56:14,569 --> 00:56:11,760 have people who have forecasted this 1381 00:56:16,970 --> 00:56:14,579 time this era what more do they have to 1382 00:56:19,370 --> 00:56:16,980 say and I placed Jacques valet in in 1383 00:56:20,809 --> 00:56:19,380 there because to me he was like he had 1384 00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:20,819 not read heide a group he wasn't aware 1385 00:56:26,210 --> 00:56:24,240 of Heidegger's philosophy but he seemed 1386 00:56:28,609 --> 00:56:26,220 like the living representation of that 1387 00:56:30,349 --> 00:56:28,619 essay you know if you were to take that 1388 00:56:32,270 --> 00:56:30,359 essay and make a human out of it that 1389 00:56:34,609 --> 00:56:32,280 would be Jacques valet right there and 1390 00:56:37,069 --> 00:56:34,619 so I was really amazed when I when I met 1391 00:56:39,770 --> 00:56:37,079 Jacques I was like okay I can really 1392 00:56:42,170 --> 00:56:39,780 learn from him because he's the 1393 00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:42,180 embodiment of what Heidegger was talking 1394 00:56:46,609 --> 00:56:43,680 about even though he does he's not read 1395 00:56:47,510 --> 00:56:46,619 the essay so okay so the question is you 1396 00:56:51,230 --> 00:56:47,520 know 1397 00:56:52,910 --> 00:56:51,240 what do we make out of this idea that 1398 00:56:57,170 --> 00:56:52,920 something that we think we create 1399 00:56:59,290 --> 00:56:57,180 precedes us and then you know succeeds 1400 00:57:01,750 --> 00:56:59,300 us yeah 1401 00:57:05,329 --> 00:57:01,760 okay that's just that's a really 1402 00:57:07,370 --> 00:57:05,339 interesting idea that could be like you 1403 00:57:09,710 --> 00:57:07,380 know that looks pretty sci-fi 1404 00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:09,720 right so this looks like a science 1405 00:57:12,650 --> 00:57:11,280 fiction that we don't want to be a part 1406 00:57:18,410 --> 00:57:12,660 of 1407 00:57:20,569 --> 00:57:18,420 actually have a a very 1408 00:57:22,730 --> 00:57:20,579 um I'll call it 1409 00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:22,740 it's a momentous interpretation of it 1410 00:57:29,210 --> 00:57:26,160 but also they are what's the right word 1411 00:57:31,730 --> 00:57:29,220 for it they're optimistic 1412 00:57:33,890 --> 00:57:31,740 so those are the people who have been 1413 00:57:36,410 --> 00:57:33,900 engaged in conversations with lately is 1414 00:57:39,770 --> 00:57:36,420 these people who are optimistic about it 1415 00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:39,780 hmm that's interesting I I maybe it's 1416 00:57:43,970 --> 00:57:41,520 just my own perspective it's hard to be 1417 00:57:45,890 --> 00:57:43,980 it can be a little hard to be optimistic 1418 00:57:47,510 --> 00:57:45,900 about it I mean the third claim that 1419 00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:47,520 that he makes in the essay is that 1420 00:57:50,750 --> 00:57:49,440 technology is the greatest danger which 1421 00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:50,760 I think we've kind of touched on in some 1422 00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:52,559 of these you know other responses just 1423 00:57:58,130 --> 00:57:56,160 in terms of the danger of of we've 1424 00:58:00,410 --> 00:57:58,140 almost like been colonized by technology 1425 00:58:02,569 --> 00:58:00,420 and now we see the world through the 1426 00:58:05,210 --> 00:58:02,579 eyes of technology in a way and so and 1427 00:58:07,130 --> 00:58:05,220 that sort of technological thinking is a 1428 00:58:09,530 --> 00:58:07,140 danger to us but what I also found 1429 00:58:11,089 --> 00:58:09,540 really interesting you know through your 1430 00:58:13,309 --> 00:58:11,099 work is is that it kind of gives this 1431 00:58:16,490 --> 00:58:13,319 other perspective of how technology can 1432 00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:16,500 be potentially dangerous which is that 1433 00:58:22,250 --> 00:58:19,440 it how it influences our belief systems 1434 00:58:23,930 --> 00:58:22,260 like in American Cosmic um you talk very 1435 00:58:26,450 --> 00:58:23,940 specifically about techno how technology 1436 00:58:28,609 --> 00:58:26,460 influences belief and you use the 1437 00:58:31,130 --> 00:58:28,619 example of the monolith from Stanley 1438 00:58:33,770 --> 00:58:31,140 Kubrick's 2001 A Space Odyssey to 1439 00:58:35,329 --> 00:58:33,780 explore how that happens could you talk 1440 00:58:37,390 --> 00:58:35,339 a little bit about that for the 1441 00:58:40,849 --> 00:58:37,400 listeners and kind of what the monolith 1442 00:58:45,109 --> 00:58:40,859 represents in this kind of new paradigm 1443 00:58:47,630 --> 00:58:45,119 yeah so the idea is that so with the 1444 00:58:50,930 --> 00:58:47,640 monolith so a lot of American Cosmic 1445 00:58:53,450 --> 00:58:50,940 what I try to to tell people is this is 1446 00:58:55,609 --> 00:58:53,460 that in the beginning I say 1447 00:58:57,950 --> 00:58:55,619 the people who believe in this are not 1448 00:59:00,650 --> 00:58:57,960 Fringe they're actually creating the 1449 00:59:03,230 --> 00:59:00,660 technologies that we all use without 1450 00:59:05,329 --> 00:59:03,240 Consciousness unreflective right we're 1451 00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:05,339 using these Technologies wow I wonder if 1452 00:59:10,970 --> 00:59:07,760 you made them well these people 1453 00:59:12,410 --> 00:59:10,980 these people believe in UFOs okay and 1454 00:59:13,849 --> 00:59:12,420 they believe they're in contact and 1455 00:59:15,589 --> 00:59:13,859 they're creating these Technologies 1456 00:59:17,630 --> 00:59:15,599 through inspiration of this contact 1457 00:59:20,210 --> 00:59:17,640 right through these protocols and such 1458 00:59:23,690 --> 00:59:20,220 and I also wanted to say this because 1459 00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:23,700 again this gets back to this idea of 1460 00:59:28,010 --> 00:59:25,440 when I didn't want to meet Tyler at 1461 00:59:30,650 --> 00:59:28,020 first because I had a feeling that when 1462 00:59:33,530 --> 00:59:30,660 I met him I was gonna have to revise 1463 00:59:35,569 --> 00:59:33,540 what I thought about reality on so many 1464 00:59:37,609 --> 00:59:35,579 different levels and you know sometimes 1465 00:59:40,089 --> 00:59:37,619 you just don't want to do that but 1466 00:59:43,010 --> 00:59:40,099 because it's hard and it could be 1467 00:59:45,650 --> 00:59:43,020 depressing and so one of the things that 1468 00:59:47,150 --> 00:59:45,660 I had to revise was that my government 1469 00:59:50,450 --> 00:59:47,160 was involved in programs of 1470 00:59:53,630 --> 00:59:50,460 disinformation about UFOs okay and how 1471 00:59:56,809 --> 00:59:53,640 did they do this so what I did was I 1472 01:00:00,470 --> 00:59:56,819 went back to the processes that they not 1473 01:00:04,730 --> 01:00:00,480 only used but even you know commercial 1474 01:00:08,270 --> 01:00:04,740 media uses in order to trick our minds 1475 01:00:12,770 --> 01:00:08,280 into certain beliefs and addict us two 1476 01:00:16,010 --> 01:00:12,780 technologies that make them money and 1477 01:00:19,789 --> 01:00:16,020 Jacques Valley points this out in I 1478 01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:19,799 actually I often put Publications on my 1479 01:00:24,289 --> 01:00:22,079 Twitter account that I think are helpful 1480 01:00:27,410 --> 01:00:24,299 for people if they want to look at them 1481 01:00:31,370 --> 01:00:27,420 and one of them is an essay I think it's 1482 01:00:32,930 --> 01:00:31,380 called iproduct that Jacques wrote and 1483 01:00:35,870 --> 01:00:32,940 you know he's he wrote it a long time 1484 01:00:39,410 --> 01:00:35,880 ago but he republished it in 2013 where 1485 01:00:41,329 --> 01:00:39,420 he basically says you know we buy these 1486 01:00:43,130 --> 01:00:41,339 things that we believe are products but 1487 01:00:46,789 --> 01:00:43,140 we are the products right we are the 1488 01:00:49,430 --> 01:00:46,799 products and so in in very specific ways 1489 01:00:51,849 --> 01:00:49,440 in American Cosmic what I did was I 1490 01:00:54,770 --> 01:00:51,859 shared the ways in which this 1491 01:00:57,170 --> 01:00:54,780 potentially revolutionary idea that we 1492 01:00:59,870 --> 01:00:57,180 are in contact with non-human 1493 01:01:03,770 --> 01:00:59,880 intelligence off-planet intelligence is 1494 01:01:08,530 --> 01:01:03,780 is misrepresented in the media okay and 1495 01:01:12,349 --> 01:01:08,540 made to either sell products sell Media 1496 01:01:15,049 --> 01:01:12,359 or basically just misinform us and I use 1497 01:01:18,049 --> 01:01:15,059 specific examples I had the example of 1498 01:01:19,370 --> 01:01:18,059 Ray Hernandez you know so back in that 1499 01:01:20,809 --> 01:01:19,380 time period I don't know if they still 1500 01:01:23,569 --> 01:01:20,819 do this and by the way I have friends 1501 01:01:24,950 --> 01:01:23,579 who work at like mufon okay I have 1502 01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:24,960 friends that work their field research 1503 01:01:29,870 --> 01:01:27,599 good people but mufon was engaged in 1504 01:01:31,730 --> 01:01:29,880 some activities that I wanted to to 1505 01:01:34,250 --> 01:01:31,740 share and one of those was that you know 1506 01:01:36,530 --> 01:01:34,260 Ray Hernandez and his wife Dolce 1507 01:01:38,569 --> 01:01:36,540 um they had an experience of you know 1508 01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:38,579 Ray was an atheist and his wife is 1509 01:01:43,490 --> 01:01:41,280 Catholic they had the same experience of 1510 01:01:47,329 --> 01:01:43,500 of something that was that he identified 1511 01:01:49,250 --> 01:01:47,339 as non-human intelligence and so he had 1512 01:01:50,930 --> 01:01:49,260 his own idea of what it was and she had 1513 01:01:52,190 --> 01:01:50,940 her own idea of what it was and and I 1514 01:01:53,930 --> 01:01:52,200 thought it was really good for people to 1515 01:01:56,270 --> 01:01:53,940 see that people could have the same 1516 01:01:57,230 --> 01:01:56,280 experience of what is called a UFO and 1517 01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:57,240 have completely different 1518 01:02:02,210 --> 01:01:59,520 interpretations of it and so that was 1519 01:02:05,030 --> 01:02:02,220 one but then what happened was that they 1520 01:02:07,849 --> 01:02:05,040 as good citizens put it into the 1521 01:02:09,589 --> 01:02:07,859 database of of mufon and that then was 1522 01:02:11,510 --> 01:02:09,599 taken and sold to I think it was like a 1523 01:02:13,730 --> 01:02:11,520 kangar one or something and it was 1524 01:02:16,069 --> 01:02:13,740 completely made to be exactly the 1525 01:02:18,349 --> 01:02:16,079 opposite of the experience that they had 1526 01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:18,359 and that's what happens in that's called 1527 01:02:23,510 --> 01:02:20,640 redaction processes of redaction and 1528 01:02:25,309 --> 01:02:23,520 that happens in in religions so a lot of 1529 01:02:27,230 --> 01:02:25,319 times religions are these very powerful 1530 01:02:30,349 --> 01:02:27,240 forces where people want to like 1531 01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:30,359 Heidegger's force of thinking right he 1532 01:02:35,089 --> 01:02:32,640 had this amazing experience and it was 1533 01:02:36,950 --> 01:02:35,099 you know shared with people students and 1534 01:02:38,809 --> 01:02:36,960 other faculty and things like that but 1535 01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:38,819 that that experience then can be 1536 01:02:43,670 --> 01:02:42,000 redacted and used for money used for 1537 01:02:47,809 --> 01:02:43,680 media and things like that and also just 1538 01:02:50,450 --> 01:02:47,819 disinformation so I see Stanley Kubrick 1539 01:02:52,450 --> 01:02:50,460 was getting at that point in 2001 Space 1540 01:02:55,010 --> 01:02:52,460 Odyssey when he was you know basically 1541 01:02:56,990 --> 01:02:55,020 the monolith appears you know what is 1542 01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:57,000 this thing the monolith okay so is it 1543 01:03:00,170 --> 01:02:58,559 extraterrestrial technology or something 1544 01:03:03,109 --> 01:03:00,180 like that I think what he's basically 1545 01:03:06,770 --> 01:03:03,119 saying was with respect to this belief 1546 01:03:09,770 --> 01:03:06,780 in space and extraterrestrial 1547 01:03:11,510 --> 01:03:09,780 you know belief it's gonna be mediated 1548 01:03:13,609 --> 01:03:11,520 through this screen 1549 01:03:15,010 --> 01:03:13,619 and by the way the model looks like our 1550 01:03:18,829 --> 01:03:15,020 phone 1551 01:03:22,490 --> 01:03:18,839 it does it does to pass off I was like 1552 01:03:23,930 --> 01:03:22,500 okay this needs to be explained 1553 01:03:25,609 --> 01:03:23,940 um and Kelly can I also say something 1554 01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:25,619 about Martin Heidegger and that I 1555 01:03:28,970 --> 01:03:27,839 promise not to go back oh no yeah 1556 01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:28,980 absolutely 1557 01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:33,119 okay so Heidegger knew that he would 1558 01:03:38,510 --> 01:03:35,280 like I said now 1559 01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,520 Heidegger affiliated with Nazis he had a 1560 01:03:41,510 --> 01:03:40,079 lot of students and friends who were 1561 01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:41,520 Jewish that were like what are you doing 1562 01:03:47,150 --> 01:03:43,920 you know and so I don't want to say that 1563 01:03:49,609 --> 01:03:47,160 a lot of the people that identify stuff 1564 01:03:51,410 --> 01:03:49,619 and they're not necessarily good people 1565 01:03:53,270 --> 01:03:51,420 like if I met Heidegger I don't think 1566 01:03:54,829 --> 01:03:53,280 I'd like him okay 1567 01:03:56,809 --> 01:03:54,839 um but that doesn't mean that he didn't 1568 01:03:58,190 --> 01:03:56,819 have he wasn't accurate in what he 1569 01:04:01,190 --> 01:03:58,200 forecasted 1570 01:04:03,650 --> 01:04:01,200 um he also wrote a book I'm proposing 1571 01:04:05,390 --> 01:04:03,660 that you're you know um the people who 1572 01:04:07,549 --> 01:04:05,400 listen to you read this book is called 1573 01:04:10,910 --> 01:04:07,559 meditative thinking where he basically 1574 01:04:13,430 --> 01:04:10,920 identifies the organic Network and how 1575 01:04:14,990 --> 01:04:13,440 to hook into it and then then he's going 1576 01:04:16,849 --> 01:04:15,000 to be talking about the internet Network 1577 01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:16,859 and how that's how we're going to be 1578 01:04:21,670 --> 01:04:18,960 hooking into that and these are going to 1579 01:04:24,950 --> 01:04:21,680 create two ways of thinking 1580 01:04:28,490 --> 01:04:24,960 one he espouses which is the meditative 1581 01:04:30,589 --> 01:04:28,500 thinking okay and the other he says is 1582 01:04:32,569 --> 01:04:30,599 going to be fairly detrimental and it's 1583 01:04:35,089 --> 01:04:32,579 called instrumental thinking 1584 01:04:37,549 --> 01:04:35,099 and that is the the kind of Internet 1585 01:04:39,049 --> 01:04:37,559 thinking that everybody's now hooked up 1586 01:04:41,210 --> 01:04:39,059 to 1587 01:04:42,650 --> 01:04:41,220 amazing I'll make sure that's all linked 1588 01:04:45,589 --> 01:04:42,660 up in the episode description so people 1589 01:04:47,690 --> 01:04:45,599 can check it out I appreciate it yeah 1590 01:04:50,569 --> 01:04:47,700 absolutely talking a little bit more 1591 01:04:53,089 --> 01:04:50,579 about uh technology in the media I know 1592 01:04:55,730 --> 01:04:53,099 an example that you used in one of your 1593 01:04:58,130 --> 01:04:55,740 lectures that I attended was you 1594 01:04:59,390 --> 01:04:58,140 referenced uh Jordan Peel's UFO film 1595 01:05:00,829 --> 01:04:59,400 nope 1596 01:05:02,990 --> 01:05:00,839 um can you talk a little bit I think 1597 01:05:04,490 --> 01:05:03,000 Peel's vision of the UFO phenomenon I 1598 01:05:06,049 --> 01:05:04,500 think a lot of us in the community maybe 1599 01:05:07,250 --> 01:05:06,059 the public felt like what is this movie 1600 01:05:08,569 --> 01:05:07,260 about but I think a lot of us in the 1601 01:05:11,630 --> 01:05:08,579 community were like who has Jordan Peele 1602 01:05:13,609 --> 01:05:11,640 been talking to but as bizarre as it was 1603 01:05:15,049 --> 01:05:13,619 can you talk a little bit about how it 1604 01:05:16,970 --> 01:05:15,059 speaks to the relationship between 1605 01:05:20,329 --> 01:05:16,980 belief in the media 1606 01:05:23,750 --> 01:05:20,339 yeah so I think that he did he obviously 1607 01:05:26,690 --> 01:05:23,760 did a lot of research right and knew a 1608 01:05:29,750 --> 01:05:26,700 lot about what actually happens you know 1609 01:05:33,710 --> 01:05:29,760 like the you know I just finished some 1610 01:05:35,750 --> 01:05:33,720 work on Australia and uh 1611 01:05:40,910 --> 01:05:35,760 and a lot of stuff that happened there 1612 01:05:43,069 --> 01:05:40,920 in the 90s in New South Wales and you 1613 01:05:44,690 --> 01:05:43,079 know what it and this you can see this 1614 01:05:46,430 --> 01:05:44,700 anywhere here in the United States but 1615 01:05:49,010 --> 01:05:46,440 specifically there because there's a lot 1616 01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:49,020 of water so I like nope I thought it was 1617 01:05:53,690 --> 01:05:52,079 excellent I loved it and I know I I did 1618 01:05:54,950 --> 01:05:53,700 see how people received it in the 1619 01:05:56,870 --> 01:05:54,960 community a lot of people were upset 1620 01:05:58,309 --> 01:05:56,880 about it you know like I don't know why 1621 01:06:01,490 --> 01:05:58,319 they'd be upset about it had everything 1622 01:06:04,609 --> 01:06:01,500 you know it had the the UFO you know and 1623 01:06:06,829 --> 01:06:04,619 it had Danger and I think that's pretty 1624 01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:06,839 accurate you know for us to think that 1625 01:06:12,170 --> 01:06:09,599 these are just benign things that are in 1626 01:06:15,109 --> 01:06:12,180 our environment a lot of that's not true 1627 01:06:17,690 --> 01:06:15,119 so people now I would say I would count 1628 01:06:20,210 --> 01:06:17,700 into the thousands the people who I've 1629 01:06:23,990 --> 01:06:20,220 talked to who have had these experiences 1630 01:06:26,930 --> 01:06:24,000 all over the world and I would say half 1631 01:06:29,930 --> 01:06:26,940 of them are not happy benign experiences 1632 01:06:32,089 --> 01:06:29,940 half of them are scary experiences like 1633 01:06:34,250 --> 01:06:32,099 you see in Oak you know 1634 01:06:36,170 --> 01:06:34,260 um a lot of people have Burns and get 1635 01:06:38,750 --> 01:06:36,180 you know their eyes are either burn or 1636 01:06:41,390 --> 01:06:38,760 they suffer from Burns so you know we've 1637 01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:41,400 you know Gary Nolan's research uh talks 1638 01:06:47,750 --> 01:06:44,640 about that speaks to that so I think 1639 01:06:49,730 --> 01:06:47,760 what what he got right in nope and what 1640 01:06:51,950 --> 01:06:49,740 I really really appreciated was this 1641 01:06:53,510 --> 01:06:51,960 idea of the spectacle of it right and 1642 01:06:54,890 --> 01:06:53,520 people making money on the spectacle of 1643 01:06:57,829 --> 01:06:54,900 it and I've actually written about this 1644 01:06:59,450 --> 01:06:57,839 too so on the one hand you have the 1645 01:07:00,829 --> 01:06:59,460 actual people who are experiencing this 1646 01:07:02,809 --> 01:07:00,839 and they're traumatized a lot of times 1647 01:07:05,329 --> 01:07:02,819 now even if it's a good experience it's 1648 01:07:07,430 --> 01:07:05,339 still fairly traumatic okay changes your 1649 01:07:10,010 --> 01:07:07,440 world view and then on the other hand 1650 01:07:12,049 --> 01:07:10,020 you have a whole industry you know you 1651 01:07:13,430 --> 01:07:12,059 have an industry where none of the 1652 01:07:14,870 --> 01:07:13,440 people who are actually creating the 1653 01:07:16,910 --> 01:07:14,880 content are actually doing any field 1654 01:07:18,470 --> 01:07:16,920 research they're not actually talking to 1655 01:07:20,450 --> 01:07:18,480 people who are having these experiences 1656 01:07:22,130 --> 01:07:20,460 most of the time they have not had their 1657 01:07:23,630 --> 01:07:22,140 own experiences they just think it's 1658 01:07:25,849 --> 01:07:23,640 interesting you know they grew up with 1659 01:07:28,069 --> 01:07:25,859 Star Wars or you know Spielberg or 1660 01:07:31,010 --> 01:07:28,079 something like that so you have an 1661 01:07:33,410 --> 01:07:31,020 industry that feeds on itself and I 1662 01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:33,420 think that was also portrayed in nope 1663 01:07:37,970 --> 01:07:36,000 you know the whole spectacle of it and 1664 01:07:39,170 --> 01:07:37,980 that's always going to be the case it's 1665 01:07:40,970 --> 01:07:39,180 always going to be the case you know 1666 01:07:43,370 --> 01:07:40,980 that you know it happens by the way in 1667 01:07:46,130 --> 01:07:43,380 all religions as well so you know if you 1668 01:07:48,770 --> 01:07:46,140 go to Lords right where you know there's 1669 01:07:51,710 --> 01:07:48,780 an apparition said to have happened to a 1670 01:07:53,809 --> 01:07:51,720 girl with the Virgin Mary uh there's a 1671 01:07:55,970 --> 01:07:53,819 lot of kitschy stuff that's being sold 1672 01:07:58,130 --> 01:07:55,980 there there's like an industry you know 1673 01:07:59,630 --> 01:07:58,140 you can go to shops and get you know all 1674 01:08:01,130 --> 01:07:59,640 these objects and things like that which 1675 01:08:03,589 --> 01:08:01,140 by the way I think they're cool you know 1676 01:08:05,589 --> 01:08:03,599 I own them also but it's part of the 1677 01:08:09,289 --> 01:08:05,599 industry there's an industry of 1678 01:08:11,750 --> 01:08:09,299 religiosity there's an industry of UFOs 1679 01:08:13,490 --> 01:08:11,760 huge it's getting big but I think it's 1680 01:08:15,890 --> 01:08:13,500 really important to kind of separate the 1681 01:08:17,570 --> 01:08:15,900 industry from you know some people 1682 01:08:19,490 --> 01:08:17,580 actually have experiences that they 1683 01:08:21,530 --> 01:08:19,500 didn't even want these experiences to 1684 01:08:23,870 --> 01:08:21,540 happen to them and then you know they 1685 01:08:26,090 --> 01:08:23,880 have them happen and boom their whole 1686 01:08:29,209 --> 01:08:26,100 life changes you know like Chris Bledsoe 1687 01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:29,219 again you know he he didn't he wasn't 1688 01:08:38,329 --> 01:08:35,870 I love that you brought up the spectacle 1689 01:08:41,030 --> 01:08:38,339 um because uh you actually introduced me 1690 01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:41,040 to the book Society of the spectacle and 1691 01:08:44,809 --> 01:08:42,719 that book really helped me sort of marry 1692 01:08:46,189 --> 01:08:44,819 Heidegger's ideas about technology to 1693 01:08:49,189 --> 01:08:46,199 what you were saying about technology 1694 01:08:50,930 --> 01:08:49,199 and media influence and I actually for 1695 01:08:53,329 --> 01:08:50,940 the listeners I wanted to read just a 1696 01:08:55,189 --> 01:08:53,339 couple of lines excerpted from like the 1697 01:08:56,269 --> 01:08:55,199 first couple pages of the book that I 1698 01:08:58,070 --> 01:08:56,279 think might be helpful and then I have 1699 01:08:59,269 --> 01:08:58,080 some questions because it's a 1700 01:09:02,090 --> 01:08:59,279 complicated book this is not an easy 1701 01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:02,100 read either it is Kelly but I loved it 1702 01:09:06,769 --> 01:09:04,560 that I'm really like so impressed with 1703 01:09:09,289 --> 01:09:06,779 you like you get an A in any class that 1704 01:09:12,050 --> 01:09:09,299 I taught like you follow up you read the 1705 01:09:14,870 --> 01:09:12,060 readings which are very hard to read and 1706 01:09:17,990 --> 01:09:14,880 and know them and understand them well 1707 01:09:20,510 --> 01:09:18,000 and have great questions so good job oh 1708 01:09:22,970 --> 01:09:20,520 thank you I've been I've been obsessed 1709 01:09:24,289 --> 01:09:22,980 um so here's just a couple of lines that 1710 01:09:26,809 --> 01:09:24,299 I've pulled out that I think might be 1711 01:09:29,030 --> 01:09:26,819 helpful so in societies where Modern 1712 01:09:30,950 --> 01:09:29,040 conditions of production Prevail all of 1713 01:09:33,229 --> 01:09:30,960 life presents itself as an immense 1714 01:09:35,269 --> 01:09:33,239 accumulation of spectacles everything 1715 01:09:37,249 --> 01:09:35,279 that was directly lived has moved away 1716 01:09:39,309 --> 01:09:37,259 into a representation 1717 01:09:42,229 --> 01:09:39,319 the spectacle presents itself 1718 01:09:44,329 --> 01:09:42,239 simultaneously as all of society as part 1719 01:09:47,269 --> 01:09:44,339 of society and as an instrument of 1720 01:09:48,709 --> 01:09:47,279 unification as a part of society it is 1721 01:09:50,689 --> 01:09:48,719 specifically the sector which 1722 01:09:51,829 --> 01:09:50,699 concentrates all gazing and all 1723 01:09:54,050 --> 01:09:51,839 consciousness 1724 01:09:56,209 --> 01:09:54,060 due to the very fact that this sector is 1725 01:09:58,310 --> 01:09:56,219 separate it is the common ground of the 1726 01:10:01,070 --> 01:09:58,320 deceived gays and of false consciousness 1727 01:10:02,870 --> 01:10:01,080 and the unification it achieves is 1728 01:10:04,729 --> 01:10:02,880 nothing but an official language of 1729 01:10:07,189 --> 01:10:04,739 generalized separation 1730 01:10:09,770 --> 01:10:07,199 the spectacle is not a collection of 1731 01:10:13,189 --> 01:10:09,780 images but a social relation among 1732 01:10:16,310 --> 01:10:13,199 people mediated by images and this last 1733 01:10:18,650 --> 01:10:16,320 part the spectacle grasped in its 1734 01:10:20,330 --> 01:10:18,660 totality is both the result and the 1735 01:10:22,970 --> 01:10:20,340 project of an existing mode of 1736 01:10:25,669 --> 01:10:22,980 production it is not a supplement to the 1737 01:10:28,130 --> 01:10:25,679 real world and additional decoration it 1738 01:10:31,010 --> 01:10:28,140 is the heart of the unrealism of the 1739 01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:31,020 real Society so can you talk a little 1740 01:10:36,410 --> 01:10:33,360 bit about like what this means and what 1741 01:10:40,790 --> 01:10:36,420 it looks like in our everyday lives 1742 01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:40,800 yes so this is gained board and he is 1743 01:10:48,530 --> 01:10:45,840 looking at the again there's no internet 1744 01:10:51,229 --> 01:10:48,540 yet right when he's writing this and so 1745 01:10:53,149 --> 01:10:51,239 he's basically identifying the what's 1746 01:10:56,570 --> 01:10:53,159 going to happen in the future and he's 1747 01:10:59,810 --> 01:10:56,580 looking at it as kind of a life way that 1748 01:11:02,750 --> 01:10:59,820 we're just about to get into 1749 01:11:04,430 --> 01:11:02,760 um and live like he's correct this is 1750 01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:04,440 another thing that Heidegger says is 1751 01:11:09,470 --> 01:11:06,960 that we tend to think that we can pick 1752 01:11:12,649 --> 01:11:09,480 up and put down our Technologies but 1753 01:11:16,550 --> 01:11:12,659 that's a that's not true we are embedded 1754 01:11:18,290 --> 01:11:16,560 within a technological world and we're 1755 01:11:20,570 --> 01:11:18,300 not going to be able to escape it even 1756 01:11:22,130 --> 01:11:20,580 if we try to get off the grid the 1757 01:11:24,110 --> 01:11:22,140 frequencies of the satellites I mean 1758 01:11:27,229 --> 01:11:24,120 we're just in it right and everybody we 1759 01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:27,239 meet is in it as well so it's not like 1760 01:11:30,890 --> 01:11:29,040 we can separate ourselves out and I 1761 01:11:33,649 --> 01:11:30,900 think that's what he's basically saying 1762 01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:33,659 is that it used to be that we could turn 1763 01:11:39,350 --> 01:11:35,520 the spectacle on so you know television 1764 01:11:41,510 --> 01:11:39,360 back in the day a the radio back in the 1765 01:11:43,970 --> 01:11:41,520 day day you know way back in the day 1766 01:11:46,430 --> 01:11:43,980 um these were forms of the spectacle 1767 01:11:48,830 --> 01:11:46,440 that you that gave us a 1768 01:11:50,330 --> 01:11:48,840 a feeling that we're we were United with 1769 01:11:53,209 --> 01:11:50,340 people because we could turn on the 1770 01:11:54,890 --> 01:11:53,219 radio and listen to what's happening say 1771 01:11:57,110 --> 01:11:54,900 we live in Iowa and we could listen to 1772 01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:57,120 what's happening in New York right and 1773 01:12:00,590 --> 01:11:59,040 that gave us a sense that we were 1774 01:12:02,590 --> 01:12:00,600 together 1775 01:12:05,990 --> 01:12:02,600 um now we have you know the radio 1776 01:12:08,149 --> 01:12:06,000 supercharged right so what does this 1777 01:12:10,189 --> 01:12:08,159 mean basically he's saying he's he's 1778 01:12:13,130 --> 01:12:10,199 talking a lot about how this is the 1779 01:12:17,990 --> 01:12:13,140 basis of the economy and how because 1780 01:12:20,750 --> 01:12:18,000 money is so intricately involved with 1781 01:12:22,550 --> 01:12:20,760 representation I don't even know see 1782 01:12:25,850 --> 01:12:22,560 this is why I think reading Heidegger's 1783 01:12:28,910 --> 01:12:25,860 book called what is thinking is probably 1784 01:12:31,330 --> 01:12:28,920 so important because most of my students 1785 01:12:35,330 --> 01:12:31,340 have no idea now because of their age 1786 01:12:38,390 --> 01:12:35,340 they're not aware of like they don't 1787 01:12:39,770 --> 01:12:38,400 make a connection between what gee the 1788 01:12:41,390 --> 01:12:39,780 board is talking about like you know 1789 01:12:44,149 --> 01:12:41,400 there's this lived reality and then 1790 01:12:46,870 --> 01:12:44,159 there's representation of reality it's 1791 01:12:49,550 --> 01:12:46,880 all it all runs in the same 1792 01:12:54,850 --> 01:12:49,560 spectacle but that doesn't mean we can't 1793 01:12:57,290 --> 01:12:54,860 use our intelligence to understand 1794 01:13:00,830 --> 01:12:57,300 that we're living within this spectacle 1795 01:13:03,169 --> 01:13:00,840 I mean like most people 1796 01:13:05,810 --> 01:13:03,179 um can differentiate different avatars 1797 01:13:07,430 --> 01:13:05,820 right in their social social media 1798 01:13:09,229 --> 01:13:07,440 communities you know in this community I 1799 01:13:11,270 --> 01:13:09,239 have this Avatar this so you're kind of 1800 01:13:14,750 --> 01:13:11,280 different personas and things like that 1801 01:13:16,130 --> 01:13:14,760 right so in a sense we live within these 1802 01:13:19,130 --> 01:13:16,140 representations 1803 01:13:20,750 --> 01:13:19,140 hmm no it makes sense and it's actually 1804 01:13:23,450 --> 01:13:20,760 a great transition to one of our final 1805 01:13:25,189 --> 01:13:23,460 topics which is Plato's Republic and 1806 01:13:27,290 --> 01:13:25,199 specifically The Narrative of the cave 1807 01:13:28,550 --> 01:13:27,300 so for those listening who may not have 1808 01:13:30,649 --> 01:13:28,560 read the cave since college or maybe 1809 01:13:32,330 --> 01:13:30,659 haven't read it at all Plato's Cave 1810 01:13:33,830 --> 01:13:32,340 involves a scenario where people are 1811 01:13:36,169 --> 01:13:33,840 tied up in a cave looking at a wall 1812 01:13:37,910 --> 01:13:36,179 behind them there is a roaring fire and 1813 01:13:39,530 --> 01:13:37,920 people walking around carrying objects 1814 01:13:41,689 --> 01:13:39,540 that are casting Shadows on the wall in 1815 01:13:43,250 --> 01:13:41,699 front of the prisoners to the prisoners 1816 01:13:45,350 --> 01:13:43,260 they think that the Shadows are real 1817 01:13:46,910 --> 01:13:45,360 it's all they've ever known so if 1818 01:13:48,050 --> 01:13:46,920 someone were to untie them and tap them 1819 01:13:49,669 --> 01:13:48,060 on the shoulder and make them turn 1820 01:13:51,169 --> 01:13:49,679 around they wouldn't even necessarily 1821 01:13:52,970 --> 01:13:51,179 know what they were looking at and it 1822 01:13:55,550 --> 01:13:52,980 would look less real to them than what 1823 01:13:57,110 --> 01:13:55,560 was on the wall so my question for you 1824 01:13:58,729 --> 01:13:57,120 is 1825 01:14:00,770 --> 01:13:58,739 um are the Shadows on the wall the 1826 01:14:02,510 --> 01:14:00,780 phenomenon that's being explained in 1827 01:14:04,250 --> 01:14:02,520 society of the spectacle like were they 1828 01:14:06,649 --> 01:14:04,260 dealing with the same issue in Ancient 1829 01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:06,659 Rome or is Plato referring to something 1830 01:14:12,110 --> 01:14:10,080 else yeah this is a great question it 1831 01:14:13,130 --> 01:14:12,120 depends on who you ask so I'm going to 1832 01:14:14,810 --> 01:14:13,140 tell you that there are different 1833 01:14:16,310 --> 01:14:14,820 interpretations 1834 01:14:19,070 --> 01:14:16,320 um there's kind of a 1835 01:14:21,470 --> 01:14:19,080 canonical interpretation of the allegory 1836 01:14:25,310 --> 01:14:21,480 of the cave and then there's other 1837 01:14:28,130 --> 01:14:25,320 interpretations and the so the allegory 1838 01:14:30,229 --> 01:14:28,140 of the cave is in so Plato is a 1839 01:14:31,370 --> 01:14:30,239 philosopher of you know a very 1840 01:14:33,050 --> 01:14:31,380 well-known philosopher within Western 1841 01:14:35,810 --> 01:14:33,060 Society almost everybody's heard of 1842 01:14:38,209 --> 01:14:35,820 Plato he was the student of Socrates who 1843 01:14:40,370 --> 01:14:38,219 never wrote anything and they were just 1844 01:14:43,070 --> 01:14:40,380 at the cusp of a new technology called 1845 01:14:45,169 --> 01:14:43,080 right heme okay so they were you know it 1846 01:14:48,169 --> 01:14:45,179 was writing and Plato was actually 1847 01:14:50,870 --> 01:14:48,179 fairly resistant to it and he tended to 1848 01:14:53,570 --> 01:14:50,880 write we tend to he did he wrote 1849 01:14:56,209 --> 01:14:53,580 everything in dialogue form okay and 1850 01:14:59,390 --> 01:14:56,219 that was kind of a way to resist what he 1851 01:15:03,229 --> 01:14:59,400 thought was a separation of Knowledge 1852 01:15:05,930 --> 01:15:03,239 from its uh source which is what he 1853 01:15:07,729 --> 01:15:05,940 thought writing was doing so he was 1854 01:15:10,430 --> 01:15:07,739 critical of that and he wanted writing 1855 01:15:12,410 --> 01:15:10,440 to to you know to be basically like 1856 01:15:15,770 --> 01:15:12,420 meditative thinking like in Heidegger's 1857 01:15:17,930 --> 01:15:15,780 sense okay so let's set the stage for 1858 01:15:21,290 --> 01:15:17,940 you know who who wrote this the allegory 1859 01:15:22,910 --> 01:15:21,300 of the cave let's talk about then the 1860 01:15:25,790 --> 01:15:22,920 ways in which the allegory of the cave 1861 01:15:29,330 --> 01:15:25,800 first it's included in a book about 1862 01:15:34,010 --> 01:15:29,340 politics called The Republic and the 1863 01:15:37,490 --> 01:15:34,020 Republic is a book about the question 1864 01:15:40,669 --> 01:15:37,500 can there be a just Society 1865 01:15:42,790 --> 01:15:40,679 okay super simple question can there be 1866 01:15:46,430 --> 01:15:42,800 a just Society 1867 01:15:49,010 --> 01:15:46,440 these men are living in Athens 1868 01:15:51,830 --> 01:15:49,020 and Socrates 1869 01:15:54,410 --> 01:15:51,840 who's not actually doing anything wrong 1870 01:15:57,590 --> 01:15:54,420 except for teaching young people 1871 01:15:59,570 --> 01:15:57,600 is sentenced to death by his government 1872 01:16:02,930 --> 01:15:59,580 by the Athens government 1873 01:16:06,830 --> 01:16:02,940 and Plato and all of those who are 1874 01:16:09,709 --> 01:16:06,840 Socrates and students beg him not to 1875 01:16:11,990 --> 01:16:09,719 take Hemlock and die right he's he has 1876 01:16:13,790 --> 01:16:12,000 an out if he wants he does not have to 1877 01:16:15,470 --> 01:16:13,800 do that but he does he takes it and it's 1878 01:16:17,750 --> 01:16:15,480 called that's the the dialogue called 1879 01:16:19,669 --> 01:16:17,760 the apology where he's basically talking 1880 01:16:23,750 --> 01:16:19,679 about why he's going to do this well 1881 01:16:25,610 --> 01:16:23,760 think of what kind of mindset that puts 1882 01:16:29,689 --> 01:16:25,620 Plato in 1883 01:16:32,950 --> 01:16:29,699 this is traumatizing he's traumatized 1884 01:16:35,930 --> 01:16:32,960 because he's witnessing 1885 01:16:37,370 --> 01:16:35,940 he's witnessing a terrorist act by his 1886 01:16:40,370 --> 01:16:37,380 government 1887 01:16:43,790 --> 01:16:40,380 so okay so let's just get that straight 1888 01:16:45,530 --> 01:16:43,800 so he's writing the Republic not as an 1889 01:16:48,050 --> 01:16:45,540 act of hey I wonder if we could ever 1890 01:16:49,310 --> 01:16:48,060 have a just Society but as a lived 1891 01:16:52,850 --> 01:16:49,320 reality 1892 01:16:57,110 --> 01:16:52,860 like really and this is 2500 years ago 1893 01:17:01,070 --> 01:16:57,120 and he asks can we ever have a reality 1894 01:17:03,229 --> 01:17:01,080 of Justice you know of of a political 1895 01:17:05,450 --> 01:17:03,239 system that doesn't do this kind of 1896 01:17:08,390 --> 01:17:05,460 thing to those people who contributed 1897 01:17:11,510 --> 01:17:08,400 the most to it so this is the question 1898 01:17:16,550 --> 01:17:11,520 that he's asking and um 1899 01:17:19,790 --> 01:17:16,560 what I tell like my own kids even and my 1900 01:17:22,189 --> 01:17:19,800 students is that the allegory of the 1901 01:17:25,070 --> 01:17:22,199 cave is the first red pill 1902 01:17:28,490 --> 01:17:25,080 it's their first document 1903 01:17:31,130 --> 01:17:28,500 and it's the most important one too okay 1904 01:17:33,709 --> 01:17:31,140 what's happening here so when I learned 1905 01:17:36,649 --> 01:17:33,719 about it I was in high school then I was 1906 01:17:37,970 --> 01:17:36,659 in college and it never changed it was 1907 01:17:39,709 --> 01:17:37,980 always this 1908 01:17:44,689 --> 01:17:39,719 that 1909 01:17:47,990 --> 01:17:44,699 it's basically a story about Plato's 1910 01:17:50,870 --> 01:17:48,000 about socrates's idea of the good 1911 01:17:53,270 --> 01:17:50,880 because when the person who gets free 1912 01:17:55,729 --> 01:17:53,280 from the cave you know there's a guy who 1913 01:17:57,590 --> 01:17:55,739 or you know a person who actually gets 1914 01:17:59,510 --> 01:17:57,600 free from the cave goes outside the cave 1915 01:18:01,430 --> 01:17:59,520 and sees this that there's the sun 1916 01:18:04,610 --> 01:18:01,440 doesn't look at the Sun or maybe does 1917 01:18:07,370 --> 01:18:04,620 but his eyes hurt and he begins to see 1918 01:18:10,310 --> 01:18:07,380 stuff and he's like wow what's in the 1919 01:18:12,950 --> 01:18:10,320 caves just a shadow of what's real 1920 01:18:14,209 --> 01:18:12,960 and so this is what most how if you take 1921 01:18:18,709 --> 01:18:14,219 a philosophy class you're going to be 1922 01:18:20,750 --> 01:18:18,719 taught about that that this is the 1923 01:18:23,450 --> 01:18:20,760 interpretation of the allegory of the 1924 01:18:24,830 --> 01:18:23,460 cave and I never questioned it okay so 1925 01:18:28,370 --> 01:18:24,840 that was the interpretation was it was 1926 01:18:31,729 --> 01:18:28,380 the epistemology of the good in Plato's 1927 01:18:34,669 --> 01:18:31,739 philosophy that you know once we start 1928 01:18:36,470 --> 01:18:34,679 to recognize that there are things 1929 01:18:38,330 --> 01:18:36,480 behind the representation kind of going 1930 01:18:40,130 --> 01:18:38,340 back to the spectacle that there are 1931 01:18:42,350 --> 01:18:40,140 these real things behind these 1932 01:18:44,750 --> 01:18:42,360 representations of Love or Justice there 1933 01:18:47,330 --> 01:18:44,760 are these things and that if we can 1934 01:18:49,729 --> 01:18:47,340 focus on those we'll get a better sense 1935 01:18:51,530 --> 01:18:49,739 of them okay and that this is his 1936 01:18:53,570 --> 01:18:51,540 epistemology all right all right no 1937 01:18:55,189 --> 01:18:53,580 problem I've been you know I've I was a 1938 01:18:57,950 --> 01:18:55,199 good philosophy 1939 01:19:01,610 --> 01:18:57,960 student you know got got my good grades 1940 01:19:03,649 --> 01:19:01,620 okay all right fast forward learning 1941 01:19:07,430 --> 01:19:03,659 about UFOs 1942 01:19:10,729 --> 01:19:07,440 and I I also you know taken to 1943 01:19:13,250 --> 01:19:10,739 consideration that a lot of the kinds of 1944 01:19:15,770 --> 01:19:13,260 movies that we like today use the 1945 01:19:17,750 --> 01:19:15,780 allegory of the cave as a template so 1946 01:19:19,850 --> 01:19:17,760 like the Matrix 1947 01:19:22,430 --> 01:19:19,860 um The Truman Show 1948 01:19:23,750 --> 01:19:22,440 um this Netflix series 1829 you know 1949 01:19:26,870 --> 01:19:23,760 that got canceled and everybody got 1950 01:19:29,930 --> 01:19:26,880 upset about it okay so the uh the idea 1951 01:19:31,970 --> 01:19:29,940 is that we live in a simulation okay and 1952 01:19:34,430 --> 01:19:31,980 that we we don't know that we do because 1953 01:19:36,770 --> 01:19:34,440 it's such a good simulation okay say it 1954 01:19:38,450 --> 01:19:36,780 has haptic technology right so we're 1955 01:19:40,090 --> 01:19:38,460 like we're in the simulation we can't 1956 01:19:42,229 --> 01:19:40,100 get out of it that's the other 1957 01:19:43,610 --> 01:19:42,239 interpretation of the allegory of the 1958 01:19:45,290 --> 01:19:43,620 cave so you've got those two 1959 01:19:47,390 --> 01:19:45,300 interpretations one's kind of like a 1960 01:19:49,729 --> 01:19:47,400 scholarly idea and the other is a more 1961 01:19:51,410 --> 01:19:49,739 popular cultural idea that the allegory 1962 01:19:54,350 --> 01:19:51,420 of the cave means this 1963 01:19:56,270 --> 01:19:54,360 okay I never questioned those after 1964 01:19:59,030 --> 01:19:56,280 American Cosmic 1965 01:20:01,250 --> 01:19:59,040 I became well let's put it this way 1966 01:20:03,950 --> 01:20:01,260 sometimes certain things you you read 1967 01:20:06,770 --> 01:20:03,960 when you're younger come back to you and 1968 01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:06,780 they don't let you go so I became I 1969 01:20:09,830 --> 01:20:08,400 wouldn't say that I was obsessed with 1970 01:20:12,590 --> 01:20:09,840 allegory in the cave I would say that 1971 01:20:15,290 --> 01:20:12,600 allegory of the cave was coming back to 1972 01:20:16,970 --> 01:20:15,300 me like a bad song that you try to get 1973 01:20:18,470 --> 01:20:16,980 out of your head but it keeps coming 1974 01:20:20,450 --> 01:20:18,480 back and you're like I wish that would 1975 01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:20,460 just go away if I sing it will it go 1976 01:20:24,530 --> 01:20:22,800 away no it's stuck in my head and you're 1977 01:20:25,910 --> 01:20:24,540 you won't you know you you don't want to 1978 01:20:27,830 --> 01:20:25,920 tell your friends because then it'll get 1979 01:20:30,470 --> 01:20:27,840 stuck in their head but of course I had 1980 01:20:32,209 --> 01:20:30,480 to tell my friends oh the Hell go to the 1981 01:20:33,649 --> 01:20:32,219 cave what do you think that means and so 1982 01:20:35,090 --> 01:20:33,659 they would tell me you know either one 1983 01:20:37,370 --> 01:20:35,100 or the other of those interpretations 1984 01:20:41,330 --> 01:20:37,380 and then I would say but what about 1985 01:20:42,890 --> 01:20:41,340 those people that that tied up the 1986 01:20:45,290 --> 01:20:42,900 people in the cave what do you think 1987 01:20:47,510 --> 01:20:45,300 about them and they're like ah come on 1988 01:20:50,390 --> 01:20:47,520 it's just an allegory it's not reality 1989 01:20:51,770 --> 01:20:50,400 it's not made to be literal basically I 1990 01:20:53,570 --> 01:20:51,780 was thinking about it all the time I 1991 01:20:55,250 --> 01:20:53,580 asked everyone I knew about it I said 1992 01:20:56,870 --> 01:20:55,260 tell me about this tell me about the 1993 01:20:59,090 --> 01:20:56,880 allegory of the cave you know and so 1994 01:21:01,430 --> 01:20:59,100 they would all say Diana you're thinking 1995 01:21:03,530 --> 01:21:01,440 way too hard about allegory the cave and 1996 01:21:04,790 --> 01:21:03,540 I was like no I don't think I am I think 1997 01:21:08,030 --> 01:21:04,800 we're actually just trying to understand 1998 01:21:09,649 --> 01:21:08,040 it better and here's where it gets the 1999 01:21:11,330 --> 01:21:09,659 allegory of the cave becomes something 2000 01:21:13,030 --> 01:21:11,340 completely different than those two 2001 01:21:17,390 --> 01:21:13,040 interpretations that I just suggested 2002 01:21:18,709 --> 01:21:17,400 and I think that it's an accurate I 2003 01:21:20,149 --> 01:21:18,719 think that what I think about it is 2004 01:21:22,790 --> 01:21:20,159 actually probably what was going on in 2005 01:21:24,530 --> 01:21:22,800 Plato's mind now a lot of philosophers 2006 01:21:26,209 --> 01:21:24,540 would be mad at me for thinking this but 2007 01:21:28,910 --> 01:21:26,219 I do know some philosophers who agree 2008 01:21:30,290 --> 01:21:28,920 with me so in my search for other people 2009 01:21:32,149 --> 01:21:30,300 who've thought about it in the same way 2010 01:21:33,290 --> 01:21:32,159 that I'm going to tell you about what I 2011 01:21:36,590 --> 01:21:33,300 think about it 2012 01:21:39,229 --> 01:21:36,600 um I Came Upon James Baden he's a 2013 01:21:41,630 --> 01:21:39,239 professor of philosophy and he had what 2014 01:21:43,550 --> 01:21:41,640 he called a spooky interpretation of the 2015 01:21:45,709 --> 01:21:43,560 allegory of the cave and I thought that 2016 01:21:47,149 --> 01:21:45,719 kind of sounds like what you know I 2017 01:21:48,350 --> 01:21:47,159 think my interpretation is somewhat 2018 01:21:50,030 --> 01:21:48,360 spooky 2019 01:21:53,149 --> 01:21:50,040 um let's see what he had to say well we 2020 01:21:56,030 --> 01:21:53,159 were we were exactly right on in terms 2021 01:21:58,370 --> 01:21:56,040 of having an agreement about what it 2022 01:22:02,270 --> 01:21:58,380 meant okay so and this is this is what 2023 01:22:05,330 --> 01:22:02,280 we say is that in the Republic there's a 2024 01:22:07,850 --> 01:22:05,340 conversation between Socrates and glacon 2025 01:22:10,130 --> 01:22:07,860 and they're basically you know they're 2026 01:22:13,070 --> 01:22:10,140 they're they're banding about this idea 2027 01:22:14,030 --> 01:22:13,080 of can we have a just society and they 2028 01:22:17,750 --> 01:22:14,040 present 2029 01:22:19,430 --> 01:22:17,760 it they're like nah that doesn't sound 2030 01:22:20,990 --> 01:22:19,440 good nah that doesn't sound good no that 2031 01:22:22,910 --> 01:22:21,000 doesn't sound good until they get to the 2032 01:22:24,590 --> 01:22:22,920 very end and then Socrates says you know 2033 01:22:26,390 --> 01:22:24,600 what let's talk about this allegory of 2034 01:22:29,570 --> 01:22:26,400 the cave and so he basically talks about 2035 01:22:33,110 --> 01:22:29,580 it and then he says don't you think that 2036 01:22:38,830 --> 01:22:33,120 we need to create a 2037 01:22:41,209 --> 01:22:38,840 a craft that it's a craft that engages 2038 01:22:43,790 --> 01:22:41,219 each other in helping each other 2039 01:22:47,390 --> 01:22:43,800 identify this thing the spectacle the 2040 01:22:49,490 --> 01:22:47,400 Shadows and glaucon says yeah I think we 2041 01:22:51,649 --> 01:22:49,500 do I think we need to do that and I 2042 01:22:54,530 --> 01:22:51,659 think that that's what the point of the 2043 01:22:56,270 --> 01:22:54,540 Republic is is that it's exactly the 2044 01:22:58,370 --> 01:22:56,280 point that Heidegger came to in 2045 01:23:01,310 --> 01:22:58,380 meditative thinking there's no just 2046 01:23:03,410 --> 01:23:01,320 Society but what there is is there's the 2047 01:23:05,209 --> 01:23:03,420 ability there's the Sangha and that's 2048 01:23:08,209 --> 01:23:05,219 what I was trying to get with um 2049 01:23:11,450 --> 01:23:08,219 theories of everything and Kurt and he's 2050 01:23:14,149 --> 01:23:11,460 so sweet to go with me there you know is 2051 01:23:15,770 --> 01:23:14,159 that it's it's the Sangha which is a 2052 01:23:19,010 --> 01:23:15,780 Buddhist term for the community of 2053 01:23:21,530 --> 01:23:19,020 people who are with you who see that 2054 01:23:24,530 --> 01:23:21,540 there's the spectacle who see that 2055 01:23:26,810 --> 01:23:24,540 there's the the treasonous you know ways 2056 01:23:29,090 --> 01:23:26,820 in which people hurt each other and even 2057 01:23:31,610 --> 01:23:29,100 governments killing Socrates and things 2058 01:23:33,830 --> 01:23:31,620 like that you know Martin Luther King 2059 01:23:36,350 --> 01:23:33,840 and you know people like that and you 2060 01:23:38,450 --> 01:23:36,360 start to say to each other let's help 2061 01:23:40,729 --> 01:23:38,460 each other and that's what Heidegger was 2062 01:23:43,250 --> 01:23:40,739 trying to do and that's why his you know 2063 01:23:45,290 --> 01:23:43,260 classrooms were standing room only and 2064 01:23:48,169 --> 01:23:45,300 that's why he became famous with because 2065 01:23:51,290 --> 01:23:48,179 he presented a way out and the way that 2066 01:23:54,169 --> 01:23:51,300 it's that reading of the of the Republic 2067 01:23:56,930 --> 01:23:54,179 of Plato's allegory the cave which is 2068 01:23:58,370 --> 01:23:56,940 not about we are in a simulation yeah 2069 01:24:00,770 --> 01:23:58,380 we're in a simulation but that doesn't 2070 01:24:03,410 --> 01:24:00,780 mean we're trapped we can talk about it 2071 01:24:07,010 --> 01:24:03,420 we can talk about what we see and you 2072 01:24:08,930 --> 01:24:07,020 know and the truth or falsity of it and 2073 01:24:10,729 --> 01:24:08,940 you know what it means to us and we 2074 01:24:13,250 --> 01:24:10,739 could do this together what I like about 2075 01:24:15,410 --> 01:24:13,260 the allegory of the cave is it presents 2076 01:24:17,810 --> 01:24:15,420 something that's not individualistic 2077 01:24:20,870 --> 01:24:17,820 it's a philosophy of togetherness 2078 01:24:24,110 --> 01:24:20,880 there's a sense of community within it 2079 01:24:26,030 --> 01:24:24,120 I love that I I've read Republic a 2080 01:24:27,830 --> 01:24:26,040 couple times over the last year after 2081 01:24:29,930 --> 01:24:27,840 and I feel like I've understood it a 2082 01:24:31,130 --> 01:24:29,940 little better each time 2083 01:24:32,330 --> 01:24:31,140 um and I know that you said to me at one 2084 01:24:34,669 --> 01:24:32,340 point one of our emails over the summer 2085 01:24:36,890 --> 01:24:34,679 that like these are dangerous ideas and 2086 01:24:39,530 --> 01:24:36,900 I think at the time I was like not quite 2087 01:24:41,330 --> 01:24:39,540 sure what you meant by that and I had to 2088 01:24:43,130 --> 01:24:41,340 go back and try again you know to be 2089 01:24:45,709 --> 01:24:43,140 like what is dangerous about this and 2090 01:24:47,930 --> 01:24:45,719 why did why were they killed by their 2091 01:24:51,410 --> 01:24:47,940 government for you know like why were 2092 01:24:52,189 --> 01:24:51,420 these people targeted right and um to be 2093 01:24:53,689 --> 01:24:52,199 honest I don't know if it's something 2094 01:24:55,010 --> 01:24:53,699 I've been ready to talk about publicly 2095 01:24:56,570 --> 01:24:55,020 yet because I think that like when you 2096 01:24:57,950 --> 01:24:56,580 really start to get there like it's kind 2097 01:24:59,750 --> 01:24:57,960 of it is radical stuff and there's 2098 01:25:02,209 --> 01:24:59,760 people who would might not like what I 2099 01:25:04,490 --> 01:25:02,219 have to say but it does remind me of I 2100 01:25:06,890 --> 01:25:04,500 my best friend my oldest and dearest 2101 01:25:09,890 --> 01:25:06,900 friend is uh an attorney and she's a 2102 01:25:11,209 --> 01:25:09,900 very very smart woman and she said to me 2103 01:25:13,430 --> 01:25:11,219 a few years ago after becoming an 2104 01:25:15,770 --> 01:25:13,440 attorney that like she thought that she 2105 01:25:17,930 --> 01:25:15,780 was getting into the law because she 2106 01:25:19,910 --> 01:25:17,940 believed in Justice like that's why she 2107 01:25:21,470 --> 01:25:19,920 started but that what she realized by 2108 01:25:23,689 --> 01:25:21,480 being an attorney is that there is no 2109 01:25:25,610 --> 01:25:23,699 such thing as Justice and that people 2110 01:25:27,530 --> 01:25:25,620 come to her wanting justice but that she 2111 01:25:30,590 --> 01:25:27,540 can't give them Justice she can give 2112 01:25:32,510 --> 01:25:30,600 them like money maybe and like maybe 2113 01:25:34,850 --> 01:25:32,520 some revenge of some kind some sort of 2114 01:25:37,130 --> 01:25:34,860 like punitive measures but she can't you 2115 01:25:39,169 --> 01:25:37,140 know she can't want something once an 2116 01:25:41,209 --> 01:25:39,179 injustice has been done there's nothing 2117 01:25:44,510 --> 01:25:41,219 you can really do to like restore 2118 01:25:46,250 --> 01:25:44,520 Justice to that situation and I think 2119 01:25:47,390 --> 01:25:46,260 that idea in of itself is really 2120 01:25:49,250 --> 01:25:47,400 challenging because then you're left 2121 01:25:52,370 --> 01:25:49,260 with the question of like 2122 01:25:53,870 --> 01:25:52,380 how do you be okay so how do I be a good 2123 01:25:56,090 --> 01:25:53,880 person how do I 2124 01:25:57,890 --> 01:25:56,100 what what is the point of all of this 2125 01:25:59,750 --> 01:25:57,900 then if Justice is something that we 2126 01:26:01,850 --> 01:25:59,760 can't attain and so I find it really 2127 01:26:03,890 --> 01:26:01,860 that book really challenged me on that 2128 01:26:05,810 --> 01:26:03,900 level and I'm really glad that like you 2129 01:26:08,090 --> 01:26:05,820 pushed that a little further with me 2130 01:26:11,270 --> 01:26:08,100 because it made a big difference 2131 01:26:14,209 --> 01:26:11,280 yeah that's exactly right and I still 2132 01:26:16,310 --> 01:26:14,219 have this conversation with people who 2133 01:26:18,770 --> 01:26:16,320 you know we still you know they know the 2134 01:26:21,770 --> 01:26:18,780 same they were educating the same way 2135 01:26:25,310 --> 01:26:21,780 and they read the same books and we 2136 01:26:27,709 --> 01:26:25,320 still ask why you know why why is it 2137 01:26:30,050 --> 01:26:27,719 like this well I don't know but I'll I 2138 01:26:32,149 --> 01:26:30,060 do know that it is and I do know that 2139 01:26:34,430 --> 01:26:32,159 you know the allegory of the cave is one 2140 01:26:37,430 --> 01:26:34,440 of those texts that show the structure 2141 01:26:40,189 --> 01:26:37,440 of it and also present a way out but you 2142 01:26:43,370 --> 01:26:40,199 have to be attentive to that way out you 2143 01:26:44,990 --> 01:26:43,380 know because it's not taught that way in 2144 01:26:48,290 --> 01:26:45,000 at the University 2145 01:26:50,270 --> 01:26:48,300 yeah absolutely I think it's also just 2146 01:26:52,250 --> 01:26:50,280 like in some ways comforting maybe for 2147 01:26:53,390 --> 01:26:52,260 people who are coming to this topic or 2148 01:26:55,310 --> 01:26:53,400 similar topics where like you're 2149 01:26:58,189 --> 01:26:55,320 undergoing a lot of ontological shock 2150 01:27:00,110 --> 01:26:58,199 because I just felt like you know for me 2151 01:27:01,790 --> 01:27:00,120 in the Zeitgeist you kind of just have 2152 01:27:03,770 --> 01:27:01,800 that first part of the allegory where 2153 01:27:05,330 --> 01:27:03,780 like they turn around but you know the 2154 01:27:06,890 --> 01:27:05,340 part where they actually Ascend the 2155 01:27:08,330 --> 01:27:06,900 tunnel and they go outside and they try 2156 01:27:09,770 --> 01:27:08,340 to and then they go back in and they try 2157 01:27:13,310 --> 01:27:09,780 to tell people about it people don't 2158 01:27:14,930 --> 01:27:13,320 like that like and it gave me some 2159 01:27:17,330 --> 01:27:14,940 comfort to be like okay this is an 2160 01:27:20,149 --> 01:27:17,340 experience that other people are are 2161 01:27:23,810 --> 01:27:20,159 also having this sort of ontological 2162 01:27:26,209 --> 01:27:23,820 shock but also how people respond to you 2163 01:27:28,610 --> 01:27:26,219 you know in some ways this podcast is is 2164 01:27:30,410 --> 01:27:28,620 an is an exercise in trying to like go 2165 01:27:32,149 --> 01:27:30,420 back into the cave I don't think I've 2166 01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:32,159 gotten out of the cave but like to be 2167 01:27:37,129 --> 01:27:33,360 like guys I think there's something else 2168 01:27:39,290 --> 01:27:37,139 this way you know and uh not everyone 2169 01:27:40,430 --> 01:27:39,300 responds to that well I'm sure that you 2170 01:27:42,470 --> 01:27:40,440 had to deal with that a lot especially 2171 01:27:46,490 --> 01:27:42,480 as as an academic 2172 01:27:49,850 --> 01:27:46,500 yeah so no no one no Plato's correct 2173 01:27:53,750 --> 01:27:49,860 there's one part of the allegory where 2174 01:27:55,910 --> 01:27:53,760 you know he tells glaucon okay but you 2175 01:27:58,370 --> 01:27:55,920 know that if you go back they might even 2176 01:28:01,010 --> 01:27:58,380 try to kill you they'll tell you that 2177 01:28:03,770 --> 01:28:01,020 your eyes have been ruined and they 2178 01:28:05,870 --> 01:28:03,780 might kill you and so I think that we 2179 01:28:08,870 --> 01:28:05,880 have to listen to Plato you know he 2180 01:28:11,689 --> 01:28:08,880 didn't write that just because like he 2181 01:28:14,030 --> 01:28:11,699 wrote that on purpose uh by the time he 2182 01:28:17,510 --> 01:28:14,040 wrote that a good portion of all of 2183 01:28:20,510 --> 01:28:17,520 socrates's students were killed you know 2184 01:28:22,729 --> 01:28:20,520 so he was in a situation and I think we 2185 01:28:25,790 --> 01:28:22,739 have to really put that in place to 2186 01:28:28,209 --> 01:28:25,800 understand that he was writing from 2187 01:28:31,250 --> 01:28:28,219 blood like he was writing from 2188 01:28:34,330 --> 01:28:31,260 experience it wasn't just a philosophy 2189 01:28:36,830 --> 01:28:34,340 you know they were just like hanging out 2190 01:28:38,149 --> 01:28:36,840 eating grapes and drinking wine like 2191 01:28:40,010 --> 01:28:38,159 they were in the Symposium by the way 2192 01:28:42,410 --> 01:28:40,020 when they were talking about love right 2193 01:28:45,050 --> 01:28:42,420 here he's actually really serious and 2194 01:28:47,090 --> 01:28:45,060 saying no if you try to get them out and 2195 01:28:48,890 --> 01:28:47,100 free them they will kill you so you 2196 01:28:49,970 --> 01:28:48,900 would better be careful so you know I 2197 01:28:51,649 --> 01:28:49,980 think that 2198 01:28:53,270 --> 01:28:51,659 um you know you find that in religious 2199 01:28:55,070 --> 01:28:53,280 Traditions as well especially if you 2200 01:28:57,050 --> 01:28:55,080 look at Christianity where you know 2201 01:28:58,370 --> 01:28:57,060 Jesus basically says they hate me they 2202 01:29:00,649 --> 01:28:58,380 killed me they're going to do the same 2203 01:29:02,209 --> 01:29:00,659 to you you know and that's kind of a lot 2204 01:29:06,410 --> 01:29:02,219 of Christians don't seem to recognize 2205 01:29:08,810 --> 01:29:06,420 that he said that but he did so 2206 01:29:10,070 --> 01:29:08,820 um so I think that we have to accept I 2207 01:29:13,850 --> 01:29:10,080 mean I hate to say this but we have to 2208 01:29:15,770 --> 01:29:13,860 accept that the world is uh what from 2209 01:29:18,790 --> 01:29:15,780 the 90s the Smashing Pumpkins the world 2210 01:29:22,310 --> 01:29:18,800 is a vampire you know it's like 2211 01:29:25,910 --> 01:29:22,320 yeah and and just deal with it and then 2212 01:29:28,729 --> 01:29:25,920 do our best for our friends and our own 2213 01:29:30,950 --> 01:29:28,739 family and for us you know and hopefully 2214 01:29:32,209 --> 01:29:30,960 though that that's a chain reaction but 2215 01:29:33,649 --> 01:29:32,219 I mean there's no way we're gonna save 2216 01:29:37,669 --> 01:29:33,659 the world Kelly 2217 01:29:39,290 --> 01:29:37,679 yes no that's true okay so based on all 2218 01:29:41,270 --> 01:29:39,300 of that we the stuff that we just talked 2219 01:29:42,770 --> 01:29:41,280 about uh specifically the nature of 2220 01:29:44,810 --> 01:29:42,780 technology and how media and Technology 2221 01:29:47,209 --> 01:29:44,820 shape our beliefs there's this question 2222 01:29:49,430 --> 01:29:47,219 that I keep asking myself which is 2223 01:29:51,110 --> 01:29:49,440 if we accept the people like Tyler are 2224 01:29:52,850 --> 01:29:51,120 truly in touch with a higher non-local 2225 01:29:55,490 --> 01:29:52,860 intelligence that seems to be beaming 2226 01:29:57,470 --> 01:29:55,500 images and information to them and that 2227 01:29:59,750 --> 01:29:57,480 seems particularly interested in aiding 2228 01:30:01,370 --> 01:29:59,760 our technological development like is 2229 01:30:04,189 --> 01:30:01,380 that a call that we should be answering 2230 01:30:06,890 --> 01:30:04,199 we like we tend to equate technological 2231 01:30:09,290 --> 01:30:06,900 progress with positive progress in the 2232 01:30:11,270 --> 01:30:09,300 absolute sense but like what if this is 2233 01:30:12,890 --> 01:30:11,280 a false assumption and I would just love 2234 01:30:16,010 --> 01:30:12,900 to hear your your kind of thoughts on 2235 01:30:18,169 --> 01:30:16,020 that yeah so exactly I think that that's 2236 01:30:20,990 --> 01:30:18,179 the height that's the Heidegger warning 2237 01:30:23,510 --> 01:30:21,000 right there where he says so you can at 2238 01:30:25,790 --> 01:30:23,520 the very same time see the results of 2239 01:30:28,850 --> 01:30:25,800 the World Cup and watch a war happening 2240 01:30:32,390 --> 01:30:28,860 in Europe okay and he's like so you 2241 01:30:34,850 --> 01:30:32,400 think that's progress you know really I 2242 01:30:36,709 --> 01:30:34,860 think he's asking the question and I 2243 01:30:39,350 --> 01:30:36,719 think that that is and then some people 2244 01:30:42,890 --> 01:30:39,360 have this idea that you know when we 2245 01:30:45,950 --> 01:30:42,900 take the non-linearity of time 2246 01:30:48,229 --> 01:30:45,960 as an assumption we can think then that 2247 01:30:50,810 --> 01:30:48,239 you know technology is a new life form 2248 01:30:53,270 --> 01:30:50,820 that is you know uh 2249 01:30:54,709 --> 01:30:53,280 using us to kind of create itself type 2250 01:30:56,870 --> 01:30:54,719 of thing you know I have a lot of people 2251 01:30:58,669 --> 01:30:56,880 that I talk to now who have that belief 2252 01:31:00,169 --> 01:30:58,679 so you know do we really want to be 2253 01:31:00,890 --> 01:31:00,179 doing that 2254 01:31:03,169 --> 01:31:00,900 um 2255 01:31:04,669 --> 01:31:03,179 I think that there's there's you know 2256 01:31:06,890 --> 01:31:04,679 you can't put the genie back in the 2257 01:31:09,470 --> 01:31:06,900 bottle right or you know the Gin back in 2258 01:31:12,229 --> 01:31:09,480 the bottle what we do have to do is we 2259 01:31:16,189 --> 01:31:12,239 have to be conscious of how we code and 2260 01:31:19,790 --> 01:31:16,199 our intentions and I think that that 2261 01:31:22,490 --> 01:31:19,800 needs to of course obviously 2262 01:31:25,310 --> 01:31:22,500 um but I think only that can guide us 2263 01:31:27,350 --> 01:31:25,320 now is Our intention and if Our 2264 01:31:29,270 --> 01:31:27,360 intention is just for profit 2265 01:31:31,430 --> 01:31:29,280 because we are we are going to be 2266 01:31:33,290 --> 01:31:31,440 continuing to do this right 2267 01:31:35,750 --> 01:31:33,300 but your question had more to do with 2268 01:31:38,450 --> 01:31:35,760 this Assumption of of progress right 2269 01:31:41,090 --> 01:31:38,460 yeah I just I I mean just in general it 2270 01:31:43,610 --> 01:31:41,100 feels like like you know some of the 2271 01:31:44,930 --> 01:31:43,620 things that Tyler was downloading you 2272 01:31:47,209 --> 01:31:44,940 know that you describe in the book like 2273 01:31:48,830 --> 01:31:47,219 really you know intricate pieces of 2274 01:31:50,629 --> 01:31:48,840 Technology like biotechnology that can 2275 01:31:53,510 --> 01:31:50,639 help you know cure diseases and fix 2276 01:31:55,910 --> 01:31:53,520 bones and you know that sort of thing it 2277 01:31:57,770 --> 01:31:55,920 all sounds so great but I you have to I 2278 01:31:59,770 --> 01:31:57,780 guess I just wonder about the source you 2279 01:32:02,689 --> 01:31:59,780 know and what's something that is really 2280 01:32:06,290 --> 01:32:02,699 interested in turning us into a more 2281 01:32:08,390 --> 01:32:06,300 technological Society what its 2282 01:32:09,470 --> 01:32:08,400 motivations might be which you know 2283 01:32:10,669 --> 01:32:09,480 might not be the right way to think 2284 01:32:13,790 --> 01:32:10,679 about it because this might not be like 2285 01:32:15,290 --> 01:32:13,800 a separate entity in it with a separate 2286 01:32:17,330 --> 01:32:15,300 set of motivations we're not super clear 2287 01:32:19,189 --> 01:32:17,340 on that but it does make me it just 2288 01:32:20,510 --> 01:32:19,199 makes me wary a little it makes me look 2289 01:32:23,090 --> 01:32:20,520 at it a little differently than just 2290 01:32:26,689 --> 01:32:23,100 like oh how cool you know 2291 01:32:29,629 --> 01:32:26,699 yeah I think that those are a good you 2292 01:32:31,129 --> 01:32:29,639 know you're having feelings of uh 2293 01:32:34,550 --> 01:32:31,139 caution 2294 01:32:37,310 --> 01:32:34,560 and I think that those feelings we need 2295 01:32:40,070 --> 01:32:37,320 to take into consideration and 2296 01:32:42,649 --> 01:32:40,080 the idea of progress is something that 2297 01:32:44,510 --> 01:32:42,659 we just assume right we just assume 2298 01:32:46,930 --> 01:32:44,520 progress is good 2299 01:32:49,370 --> 01:32:46,940 I think that a lot of us 2300 01:32:51,410 --> 01:32:49,380 our Traditional School System needs a 2301 01:32:54,290 --> 01:32:51,420 lot of help I think we know that but I I 2302 01:32:56,590 --> 01:32:54,300 always have students read 2303 01:32:59,510 --> 01:32:56,600 um you know indigenous 2304 01:33:02,450 --> 01:32:59,520 ontologies like indigenous World Views 2305 01:33:04,850 --> 01:33:02,460 where there isn't this idea of you know 2306 01:33:08,270 --> 01:33:04,860 the kinds of assumptions that we 2307 01:33:10,250 --> 01:33:08,280 are just programmed to go with which is 2308 01:33:12,169 --> 01:33:10,260 like this idea of progress they don't 2309 01:33:15,590 --> 01:33:12,179 actually have that but yet they have 2310 01:33:17,629 --> 01:33:15,600 very sophisticated ideas that we're just 2311 01:33:19,370 --> 01:33:17,639 coming to like you know the world is you 2312 01:33:21,530 --> 01:33:19,380 know there's sentience and we're just 2313 01:33:23,510 --> 01:33:21,540 becoming we're just now learning to 2314 01:33:28,010 --> 01:33:23,520 communicate with it those who have 2315 01:33:31,129 --> 01:33:28,020 already been there so I think that uh 2316 01:33:34,430 --> 01:33:31,139 were you know we it's just a it's a 2317 01:33:35,870 --> 01:33:34,440 process of re-education and and 2318 01:33:39,050 --> 01:33:35,880 remembering 2319 01:33:42,649 --> 01:33:39,060 and I think that that's we've got to do 2320 01:33:45,590 --> 01:33:42,659 that uh but in terms of 2321 01:33:47,590 --> 01:33:45,600 your inclinations I think that those are 2322 01:33:50,090 --> 01:33:47,600 so important 2323 01:33:52,129 --> 01:33:50,100 yeah it's it's an interesting balance I 2324 01:33:53,390 --> 01:33:52,139 think about technology a lot especially 2325 01:33:55,910 --> 01:33:53,400 like as a result of reading all this 2326 01:33:57,470 --> 01:33:55,920 stuff and I think that I mean on the one 2327 01:33:59,709 --> 01:33:57,480 hand I'm very skeptical of technology 2328 01:34:05,390 --> 01:33:59,719 and cynical about it on the other hand 2329 01:34:07,550 --> 01:34:05,400 uh I hate camping and you know I you 2330 01:34:10,490 --> 01:34:07,560 know and in my entire my world my 2331 01:34:13,189 --> 01:34:10,500 community my livelihood everything is is 2332 01:34:16,070 --> 01:34:13,199 in technology if the grid went down I 2333 01:34:18,590 --> 01:34:16,080 have zero skills like no one wants me on 2334 01:34:21,229 --> 01:34:18,600 their Apocalypse Team so it's like this 2335 01:34:23,270 --> 01:34:21,239 weird kind of back and forth where I'm I 2336 01:34:25,070 --> 01:34:23,280 don't know it's a it's a weird place to 2337 01:34:26,330 --> 01:34:25,080 be uh there's a lot of cognitive 2338 01:34:28,030 --> 01:34:26,340 dissonance and 2339 01:34:33,110 --> 01:34:28,040 yeah 2340 01:34:35,990 --> 01:34:33,120 agree with you I really like how you put 2341 01:34:37,790 --> 01:34:36,000 it to to like if the grid went down 2342 01:34:38,709 --> 01:34:37,800 nobody would want me on their Apocalypse 2343 01:34:41,270 --> 01:34:38,719 Team 2344 01:34:44,270 --> 01:34:41,280 yeah you know like I'm useless I can't 2345 01:34:47,629 --> 01:34:45,890 I guess the Technology's got me either 2346 01:34:49,550 --> 01:34:47,639 way so 2347 01:34:51,050 --> 01:34:49,560 um and final question I know you're in 2348 01:34:53,149 --> 01:34:51,060 the process of wrapping up your new book 2349 01:34:56,930 --> 01:34:53,159 when will that be out and what can you 2350 01:35:00,110 --> 01:34:56,940 tell us about it sure so it's um it's 2351 01:35:04,330 --> 01:35:00,120 the book is about then I mean it's a 2352 01:35:08,270 --> 01:35:04,340 deeper dive into technology really and 2353 01:35:13,189 --> 01:35:08,280 UFO ideas and belief systems and things 2354 01:35:17,810 --> 01:35:13,199 like that and it's also looking at how 2355 01:35:19,030 --> 01:35:17,820 if we took as if we took as a an 2356 01:35:21,590 --> 01:35:19,040 assumption 2357 01:35:23,689 --> 01:35:21,600 that people have always had these 2358 01:35:26,209 --> 01:35:23,699 experiences and they just didn't start 2359 01:35:28,970 --> 01:35:26,219 happening in the 1940s like you know 2360 01:35:32,030 --> 01:35:28,980 that the narrative says what does that 2361 01:35:34,910 --> 01:35:32,040 look like and so what I do is like I 2362 01:35:37,189 --> 01:35:34,920 said my my community of people that I 2363 01:35:39,709 --> 01:35:37,199 know now is is huge in the thousands of 2364 01:35:42,229 --> 01:35:39,719 people who even like probably more than 2365 01:35:44,689 --> 01:35:42,239 ten thousand people who have these 2366 01:35:47,990 --> 01:35:44,699 experiences and I have 2367 01:35:52,430 --> 01:35:48,000 so I've chosen the people that that to 2368 01:35:54,410 --> 01:35:52,440 me exemplify some of the questions that 2369 01:35:58,250 --> 01:35:54,420 are are now kind of left off the table 2370 01:36:01,910 --> 01:35:58,260 because we have the UFO 2371 01:36:04,310 --> 01:36:01,920 phenomena right that has then morphed 2372 01:36:07,030 --> 01:36:04,320 into the UAP phenomena 2373 01:36:11,270 --> 01:36:07,040 and a lot of the UAP phenomena in my 2374 01:36:14,810 --> 01:36:11,280 estimation looks like the same phenomena 2375 01:36:17,990 --> 01:36:14,820 but trying to Rebrand it I guess you 2376 01:36:20,390 --> 01:36:18,000 know and and it's just part of it this 2377 01:36:22,129 --> 01:36:20,400 is the spectacle but if we go back to 2378 01:36:25,550 --> 01:36:22,139 the actual people who are having the 2379 01:36:28,790 --> 01:36:25,560 experiences doing the downloads and you 2380 01:36:30,590 --> 01:36:28,800 know it's a more diverse group so 2381 01:36:33,470 --> 01:36:30,600 um it starts with a woman and we have 2382 01:36:36,290 --> 01:36:33,480 women and we also have you know people 2383 01:36:40,010 --> 01:36:36,300 from diverse communities talking about 2384 01:36:42,530 --> 01:36:40,020 their experiences so I think that this 2385 01:36:45,169 --> 01:36:42,540 just kind of evens it out so I feel like 2386 01:36:47,870 --> 01:36:45,179 I did a really heavily 2387 01:36:50,689 --> 01:36:47,880 um space field oriented book with 2388 01:36:52,490 --> 01:36:50,699 American Cosmic and this starts off with 2389 01:36:54,590 --> 01:36:52,500 space I mean I am talking to a space 2390 01:36:56,450 --> 01:36:54,600 researcher but she's a woman and it goes 2391 01:36:58,850 --> 01:36:56,460 into people who are engaged in different 2392 01:37:01,010 --> 01:36:58,860 types of Technologies and then it goes 2393 01:37:02,930 --> 01:37:01,020 into just you know people who are kind 2394 01:37:05,450 --> 01:37:02,940 of normal people who are having these 2395 01:37:07,010 --> 01:37:05,460 experiences and and what happens to them 2396 01:37:09,169 --> 01:37:07,020 and so what I'm doing is I'm just 2397 01:37:12,169 --> 01:37:09,179 identifying the patterns of what they're 2398 01:37:14,510 --> 01:37:12,179 doing adding more information to the 2399 01:37:15,410 --> 01:37:14,520 database of the internet I suppose you 2400 01:37:18,110 --> 01:37:15,420 know 2401 01:37:19,370 --> 01:37:18,120 that's amazing well I I can't wait to 2402 01:37:21,290 --> 01:37:19,380 read it 2403 01:37:23,330 --> 01:37:21,300 um I know it's gonna be amazing thank 2404 01:37:25,490 --> 01:37:23,340 you so much for your time today I 2405 01:37:27,350 --> 01:37:25,500 absolutely love talking with you and I'm 2406 01:37:28,430 --> 01:37:27,360 sure uh I will I will make sure that 2407 01:37:30,410 --> 01:37:28,440 everything that we talked about anything 2408 01:37:32,030 --> 01:37:30,420 you referenced for everybody is linked 2409 01:37:33,169 --> 01:37:32,040 up in the episode description so you can 2410 01:37:34,010 --> 01:37:33,179 follow up 2411 01:37:36,410 --> 01:37:34,020 um which I think would be very 2412 01:37:38,750 --> 01:37:36,420 worthwhile but thank you again it's been 2413 01:37:40,310 --> 01:37:38,760 wonderful thank you so much Kelly it was 2414 01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:40,320 a great interview I really appreciate 2415 01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:40,890 your questions 2416 01:37:56,460 --> 01:37:53,810 [Music]